what would happen if.........

[X DM]

There are several interesting threads on here this week on judging ( and fan frustration ). We have this every year. It's understandable, as judging is such a difficult and subjective thing, and these judges do the best they can in judging completely dissimilar shows that these Corps perform.

Question for DCP readers : what are the chances the placements and score gaps would essentially be the same in 3 consecuutive competitions if we had this hypothetical judging take place : ( I'm NOT recommending this, but just to illustrate a point )

Suppose we took 3 sets of different judges and had them judge these Corps on 3 separate days under the following conditions :

1) no Corps was seen this year before they were judged by the panel

2) no Corps had any insignia, nor any uniform, nor any way that the judges knew WHO was performing before them.

3) Corps drew lots for competing order

In reality, the 3 separate judging panels, based upon their outstanding training, experience and knowledge of what is " good " and " not so good " would have all 3 competition scores and placements pretty much the same on all 3 days of judging. In a " blind test " such as this, the scores and placements should be almost identical as we would find today when the judges know who the Corps are.

But something tells me, that if 3 separate judging panels judged these Corps performances on 3 separate days, that we would probably see a LOT of surprises in scores and placements if the judges had no knowledge of the name of the Corps they were judging in front of them. What do DCP readers here think would happen ? Do you think 3 different DCI judging panels in such a hypothetical " Corps blind " judgement on Corps would have all 20 some odd Corps placing almost identiically and with the point spreads likewise almost identical as we have today ? Or do you think in such a " Corps blind test ", the placements and scores on all 3 days would be all over the lot reflecting the differences in judges, Corps performances on that particular day, and the lack of Corps recognition and perhaps natural Corps identity bias ?

Edited August 1, 2007 by X DM

[FlamInvert122]

I don't know that this would really work... I think most people could identify most of the top 12 corps without seeing their uniforms. They are all very unique and do things a certain way. For instance, one could easily pick out the Cavaliers drill and marching technique, the Cadets brass book and backward marching, Regiment 3rd, etc, etc...

[mobrien]

Take the Devils out of their uniforms this year, and their show will still be beating an un-uniformed PR, Crown, and Troopers. The quality of what they're doing isn't tied to the unis.

'sides, I think the judges would figure out who they were looking at in pretty short order anyway. B)

==

I'd like to posit another simpler, more actionable change. I'd like to see EVERY judging position doubled during Finals week, so that the scores would be averaged for each caption every night of the three-night event. DCI has enough money coming into the nationals week that springing for a doubled-up judging corps wouldn't be a significant dent in the bottom line. It nullifies the potential for any one judge to have too much sway on the final outcome, and would increase the public's faith in the final scoring.

They're already doing it with percussion for some shows, so there's no reason they shouldn't be doing it for every category and every performance during the final three performances of the year.

Edited August 1, 2007 by mobrien

[X DM]

I don't know that this would really work... I think most people could identify most of the top 12 corps without seeing their uniforms. They are all very unique and do things a certain way. For instance, one could easily pick out the Cavaliers drill and marching technique, the Cadets brass book and backward marching, Regiment 3rd, etc, etc...

True, but we are doing " lets pretend here ". Do you personally think the top 20 Corps would pretty much finish in the same identical placement order on 3 days with different panels IF there was some possible way to remove the identities of all the Corps ? It's a simple yes or no question really. I say " no ". The placements and scores would be as disparate as one could imagine. But that's just my personal opinion. But what do others think ? Would we have the placements 1-20 pretty much identical on all 3 days in such a scenario ? Or not ?

Edited August 1, 2007 by X DM

[3rd_Star_Brigade]

I'm really getting sick of people that say this.

There is a difference between corps in their abilities. The judges make mistakes, but they all slot corps, pretty much, were they need to go. Believe it or not, the judges know what they are doing.

Unless you were the judge for perc. in 91 who judged the Cadets. You know, the one who asked why the wood block in the pit was keeping time for them.

[X DM]

I'm really getting sick of people that say this.

There is a difference between corps in their abilities. The judges make mistakes, but they all slot corps, pretty much, were they need to go. Believe it or not, the judges know what they are doing.

Unless you were the judge for perc. in 91 who judged the Cadets. You know, the one who asked why the wood block in the pit was keeping time for them.

So I'm assuming that your answer would be " yes ". In all 3 days, all 20 Corps would finish placement wise pretty much the same( 1-20) with all 3 judging panels if all 3 judging panels never saw the shows before and had no way of knowing the identity ( they could guess ) of these 20 Corps. (There is no right or wrong answer here. I 'm just looking to see what people think would happen, that's all )

[mobrien]

So I'm assuming that your answer would be " yes ". In all 3 days, all 20 Corps would finish placement wise pretty much the same( 1-20) with all 3 judging panels if all 3 judging panels never saw the shows before and had no way of knowing the identity ( they could guess ) of these 20 Corps. (There is no right or wrong answer here. I 'm just looking to see what people think would happen, that's all )

The way to consider the possibilities would be to ask yourself if, for example, you think Boston would be in the lead right now if no one knew that they were Boston. Would Blue Stars still be placing a bit further down from them? How about Cascades? Are they finalists again if no one is aware of who they are? Cavaliers all of a sudden gonna be in 16th on Friday night?

Probably not. Could there be some minor shifting? Sure - but how would that be different from Canton winding up in 4th last year or PR upsetting BD for second?

My experience taking newbies to shows over the years is that more often than not, they can figure out the general rankings at the end of the night even without hearing the scores.

[silvertrombone]

True, but we are doing " lets pretend here ". Do you personally think the top 20 Corps would pretty much finish in the same identical placement order on 3 days with different panels IF there was some possible way to remove the identities of all the Corps ? It's a simple yes or no question really. I say " no ". The placements and scores would be as disparate as one could imagine. But that's just my personal opinion. But what do others think ? Would we have the placements 1-20 pretty much identical on all 3 days in such a scenario ? Or not ?

I don't think they'd finish in the same order three days in a row under the current system. How about, for grins, championships week one year DCI does THREE judging panels on each show. D3/2/1, Prelims, 1/4's, semis, finals--every show. Out with high and low in every sub-caption (or at least total scores) and see what it looks like compared with each individual judge, etc. Kinf of an interesting thought for one year.

I'm really getting sick of people that say this.

There is a difference between corps in their abilities. The judges make mistakes, but they all slot corps, pretty much, were they need to go. Believe it or not, the judges know what they are doing.

Unless you were the judge for perc. in 91 who judged the Cadets. You know, the one who asked why the wood block in the pit was keeping time for them.

Should have been a cowbell--thought we settled that in another thread.

[X DM]

The way to consider the possibilities would be to ask yourself if, for example, you think Boston would be in the lead right now if no one knew that they were Boston. Would Blue Stars still be placing a bit further down from them? How about Cascades? Are they finalists again if no one is aware of who they are? Cavaliers all of a sudden gonna be in 16th on Friday night?

Probably not. Could there be some minor shifting? Sure - but how would that be different from Canton winding up in 4th last year or PR upsetting BD for second?

My experience taking newbies to shows over the years is that more often than not, they can figure out the general rankings at the end of the night even without hearing the scores.

That's interesting. You seem to take a different newbie to a show than me. My experience with a newbie to their first show is that they are as confused with the score and placements as the long time fan. But my question is not what you and I think the placement or scores would be. My question is whether or not the 3 separate juding panel would have the placements and scores from 1-20 pretty much the same in a " Corps blind " test. You would say, for the most part " yes ', they would essentially have the same placements and scoring from 1-20 on all 3 days. Which is fine. I simply think we'd see LOTS of surpises in scores, placements and movements within those 3 days of competition in that type of a " Corps blind " judgement and with 3 different judging panels.

Edited August 1, 2007 by X DM

[mobrien]

Ok - so why do you think that? What indication do you have that corps who are actually superior in certain areas aren't being rewarded by the judges because they're in the 'wrong' unis, and vice versa?

Edited August 1, 2007 by mobrien