Tracking a King K-90's History.

[tubajoe]

My kanstul makes that k-90 look like a tinker toy. Save your nickels and dimes & buy a Zig Horn..

After owning Several of everything the Grande' Kanstul are the superior weapon.

The K-90 is the best marching bass horn to ever be on the field. No horn ever as sweet, and none needed to be larger.

Conversely, the Grande was probably one of the worst (I was never a fan), nice big bell and all but was just tooooo stuffy. They just didn't sing like a K-90 did.

(PS - arent the K-90's also "Zig" horns?? )

[HornsUp]

arent the K-90's also "Zig" horns??

Zig launched the Kanstul business in 1981. The K-90s came later, when the Sky Riders purchased King tubas from a local H.S. and had the King factory in Eastlake OH convert them into contras. There are other threads in this forum about the full K-90 history.

In 1977, at the Benge factory in Anaheim, Zig showed me a foundry pattern for a bell mandrel intended for a G contrabass. It is highly doubtful that a prototype was ever built, since there were no other tuba components being produced at Benge. The only bugles that came out of that factory were the American Command sopranos and baritones, and a few piccs. When King acquired Benge, these models were slightly modified and became the K-10, K-20, and K-70. Some of the other King bugles may have been derived from Zig prototypes, but not the K-90s.

[K-90 Freak]

My kanstul makes that k-90 look like a tinker toy. Save your nickels and dimes & buy a Zig Horn..

After owning Several of everything the Grande' Kanstul are the superior weapon.

I would pick a k-90 (the star horn) over any other contra on the field. I would like to have a 3 valve for my I & E solo this fall.

The K-90 is the best marching bass horn to ever be on the field. No horn ever as sweet, and none needed to be larger.

Conversely, the Grande was probably one of the worst (I was never a fan), nice big bell and all but was just tooooo stuffy. They just didn't sing like a K-90 did.

(PS - arent the K-90's also "Zig" horns?? )

King sold the rights on the k-90s to Kanstul. The contra grande is technically a k-90 with a 3rd valve and a bent tuning slide...

Edited April 29, 2008 by K-90 Freak

[tubajoe]

The contra grande is technically a k-90 with a 3rd valve and a bent tuning slide...

...and a considerably larger bow and bell, and unfortunately many had a trigger slide built into a small loop right after the leadpipe, before the valve section, which is one of the things that made it quite stuffy -- this was prototype #9 and beyond... delivered mid-1992, which ended up as the final production model, I think.

Above all, the Grande never played nor sounded the like the K-90 did. The Grande had better intonation -- it lacked the ruthlessly flat G that plagued the K-90, but never the soul nor core. You are truly lucky to have a K-90. It's a horn that revolutionized the sound of drum corps hornlines!

BTW, there were some Kanstul 2-v horns that were around before the Grandes (late 80's, VK had some) that played very well, they had a nice open window inside as well as to not occlude the left-side vision of the player... I think they were in essence modified K-90s. I wonder what ever happened to those...

[HornsUp]

King sold the rights on the k-90s to Kanstul. The contra grande is technically a k-90 with a 3rd valve and a bent tuning slide...

.... just like a Mustang is a Model T Ford with an 8-cylinder engine and enclosed fenders.

I don't know where you're getting your information, sis. There are no "rights" to a K-90. [if there was any kind of patent, it would have expired after 20 years.] Instrument manufacturers blatantly copy the bores, flares, and wraps of their predecessors, and have done so for centuries. Many bell mandrels today are based on European designs from the 19th century. Why? Because they work. There is no mathematical formula for ideal components of brass instruments.

[K-90 Freak]

.... just like a Mustang is a Model T Ford with an 8-cylinder engine and enclosed fenders.

I don't know where you're getting your information, sis. There are no "rights" to a K-90. [if there was any kind of patent, it would have expired after 20 years.] Instrument manufacturers blatantly copy the bores, flares, and wraps of their predecessors, and have done so for centuries. Many bell mandrels today are based on European designs from the 19th century. Why? Because they work. There is no mathematical formula for ideal components of brass instruments.

You're obviously full of crap, because as in "rights" it's the right to make the k-90 and possibly modify it. Have you not noticed that king no longer makes k-90s and that Kanstul is making replicas of k-90s?

[sonofjabba]

You're obviously full of crap, because as in "rights" it's the right to make the k-90 and possibly modify it. Have you not noticed that king no longer makes k-90s and that Kanstul is making replicas of k-90s?

Wrong answer..... You got BAD information.. The Kanstul Contra bugles are a completely different Animal. Even the Later Grande's are different than my prototype horn.

As for playability. Stuffy Yes. But if I play a K-90 I can't hammer on it they overplay WAY too easy.. Too Small a horn or bore whatever they aren't quite right.

The Earlier Grande horns (Before the Mis-Tune Every note crap) play more like a conventional tuba with the fullness, Yet the Projection of 10 Marshall Full Stacks. IMHO the stuffiness of the newer horns comes from the lousy PLASTIC valve guides. Why they started using them we'll never know. Thankfully my horn doesn't have them. :P

And if Kanstul bought the "Rights" to make the K-90 why does he have a truck load of V/R Ultratone Contras stashed away..

I've owned Operated and Sold Many Contrabass horns in the past decade. No two Kanstul contras play alike. Each one is unique, they are individually hand made.

Edited April 30, 2008 by sonofjabba

[knightsbari]

No two Kanstul contras play alike. Each one is unique, they are individually hand made.

And this is why Kanstul's are IMPOSSIBLE to tune .... my current line I had to have an extended tuning slide made while another member had to have some of his tubing cut so him and I would be in tune ( be it we are the 2 extremes of the spectrum for tuning in our section, everyone else seems to fall in between but definatly no consistent distance on how far out across the line )

[K-90 Freak]

I'm just going to stop talking about the Kanstuls, because for one, I have never played one, but I would like to to see what everyone witches about.

We obviously have 2 different opinions and want to prove the other wrong. I'll believe what I want to and you believe what you want to and the world is happy. So is DCP forums. I'll just keep my opinions and facts to myself...

Edited April 30, 2008 by K-90 Freak

[randomnoise]

I don't know as much about this as some of the folks on this thread (Hi Joe!!), but I did go to the Kanstul factory at the invitation of Wayne Downey to help him try out Contra prototypes in the early 80's (1982?). Even though I am a lowly middle horn player, I was in the area, so he asked me to help.

Anyway, I also spent a lot of time teaching K-90 sections (VK, SCV, Freelancers, Renegades), and they seemed like good horns (except for the f%ing middle G, which was (of course) the note our guys had to play perfectly in tune for the beginning of Russian Xmas music in 1987). That was such a pain in the butt. And of course, we did the tune again in Renegades 2003.

But, we (Renegades) did win at least some of our contra awards on those K-90s (which we sold to Kingsmen Alumni). And SCV 87 won the Jim Ott award, so there must be something good about them.

The Grandes are pretty similar to me (as an instructor - not as a player). But Keith is correct when he points out the incredible variety that exists. Having to modify a horn to get it to tune is ludicrous.

But, they are bugles - not so many made, so not so much refinement.

Edited April 30, 2008 by randomnoise