Qualified to judge?

[bobalooRicky]

hey Malibu...I know of the circuit you are referring to and agree 100%. I have had some band directors judging my group and I know for a fact that they are not qualified to judge any guard by any means. I know for a fact that they never ever held a peice of equipment to know the mechanics of what it takes to even spin and manipulate the equipment to get it to what it is you want to do with it.

There are some exceptions to the rule for judging...such as GE...we all know its a matter of opinion....but EA or movement and equipment I feel that the judge needs to have the experience to convey to the instructors on how to help correct or enhance their show. This is not what we are getting in this circuit. I can read as many manuals and attend as many classes on numbers management that I can, but that does not make me qualified to judge a perfomance if I have never had prior guard experience.

[sokkerboie]

I think we need to have dialogue with circuits as designers and as instructors to help improve the judging system. Too many times people just badmouth judges, without offering ways to solve the problem.......THAT THERE ARE NOT ENOUGHT PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO JUDGE. And there are few people who are willing to get the expereicne needed to excel......especially in the guard community - it's all a bunch of cliques with attitude. Why aren't we willing to learn from someone else, expand our technical vocabulary, learn something new abotu design. That is what the BEST artists do - constantly learn from others. Div I can learn from Div II/III and vice versa, world class can learn from A and OPen classes and all the combinations in between. But we are so afraid to work with people from different programs due to our own biases that we stagnate and stop growing. How many guard designers and instructors take theatre classes, dance classes, music classes, art classes, interior design classes, fashion and costuming classes? I tend from what I have experienced to see that we think we are the S**T and don't want anyone to push us, etc.

OK ok ok off topic.......how many of you are pursuing opportunities to trial and judge? I travel from Reno to So Cal, Nor Cal, even the east for judging opportunities because it makes me a better designer and instructor and a better critic and judge. I also "study" the theatre, dance (including taking dance classes in ballet, jazz, modern as wel as teaching in a studio), AND MUSIC.

Stop B******G abotu the judges and help make some positive changes in your circuits, find a circuit and start judging. Positive change never happens from complaining.

[Malibu]

I think we need to have dialogue with circuits as designers and as instructors to help improve the judging system. Too many times people just badmouth judges, without offering ways to solve the problem.......THAT THERE ARE NOT ENOUGHT PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO JUDGE. And there are few people who are willing to get the expereicne needed to excel......especially in the guard community - it's all a bunch of cliques with attitude. Why aren't we willing to learn from someone else, expand our technical vocabulary, learn something new abotu design. That is what the BEST artists do - constantly learn from others. Div I can learn from Div II/III and vice versa, world class can learn from A and OPen classes and all the combinations in between. But we are so afraid to work with people from different programs due to our own biases that we stagnate and stop growing. How many guard designers and instructors take theatre classes, dance classes, music classes, art classes, interior design classes, fashion and costuming classes? I tend from what I have experienced to see that we think we are the S**T and don't want anyone to push us, etc.

OK ok ok off topic.......how many of you are pursuing opportunities to trial and judge? I travel from Reno to So Cal, Nor Cal, even the east for judging opportunities because it makes me a better designer and instructor and a better critic and judge. I also "study" the theatre, dance (including taking dance classes in ballet, jazz, modern as wel as teaching in a studio), AND MUSIC.

Stop B******G abotu the judges and help make some positive changes in your circuits, find a circuit and start judging. Positive change never happens from complaining.

I guess you didn't see where I said, "I AM A JUDGE." It is hard for me to address these concerns within my circuit when the very people who are in charge of the judges ARE the ones I speak of.....the ones with no prior guard experience or training.

Yes you are correct that their aren't enough guard people who are willing to judge. From the ones I have tried to persuade to "join the team" they are turned off by the numbers of members who are non-guard. They don't seem to understand that in order to make the changes they wished would happen, they have to help make it work.

Do you guys have problems with judges being inconsistent with scoring? I found one problem with a few colleagues that tend to rely too much on past scores off the Internet. I noticed that some groups that didn't participate to shows two weeks before a championship, their scores were lower and it cost them dearly. I truly think at a local championship, we should throw out all scores or recaps and start fresh.......unfortunately this is not happening in my circuit. I saw judges writing down scores to use as a guideline for their class. To me this is wrong! ^0^

[sokkerboie]

I agree, there needs to be some accountability on the part of the circuit leadership to ensure that judges are qualified. How do we do that though? As a designer I have had conversations wtih judges (in circuits where there are no critiques at all and dialogue is frowned upon). I have written letters to circuit leadership in a few circuits KINDLY expressing some concerns. What can we do to effect change?

I think we have to encourage circuit leadership to adopt standards that are written into their bylaws and organizational structure that will help enforce judging practice and quality. There is no quality assurance in many circuits out there and that is where the problem falls.

I agree to some degree that judges need to understand the progress and process during a season and past show scores help to provide a basis. That is that age old question of how a program can score (for example) a 76 at one show and the very next week score a 56. Serious differentials in points SHOULD be a concern to designers and staff.

At championships I agree, as progress and work and development hopefully culminates at that performance. It should be a fresh read and score. But how do we manage the growth with scores and evaluations until then?

This is a VERY difficult issue. From both the staff and judge side of things.

[SBrancheau]

I'll jump in here, since I was a judge at one time.

I stopped judging when guards started toward "dance theatrics". One, I have dance experience, but not enough to judge dance technique properly. So, I removed myself from the judging circuit. Two, in a way, I am protesting the direction that guard has taken. If you've read any of my posts, it is clear that I am a purely color guard-oriented person. That's what I want to see. I make no apologies for that and hope that someday, guard will turn back into what it's supposed to be: equipment work at its very best.

Remember the James Bond Cavies show from the 80s? Why did we like it so much? Yes, there was dance involved, but what made it so amazing (apart from the corner-to-corner rifle toss and the good looking guys in tuxes b**bs) was the intricate, precise equipment work. The Cavies made the execution of that show look so easy! But those who marched guard KNEW the level of talent, commitment and hard work needed to pull it off EFFECTIVELY.

How many of us have an EXTENSIVE dance background (I started at age 5) with an EXTENSIVE guard background (started in high school, continued in college)? Not many, that's for sure.

If guard ever turns back to its roots, I'd judge again. But, I'm not qualified to judge dance theatrics. I AM qualified to judge guard.

[Malibu]

Sally,

I have seen some guards this year who are trying to be more involved with equipment work and less on dance or movement, but unfortunately they get shot down because of the sheets. One guard did "double fast spins" on rifle which is rarely seen these days. The kids in the audience jaws dropped when they saw all 24 doing it in sync.

I would love for the guard activity to get back to some serious guard work with less emoting across the floor, but as long as the sheets require so much emphasis on movement, we won't see it.

The year Escapade did their "R.E.M." show was sheer excitement from start to stop.....they should have won, but because of them going on first, they placed 5th! Instead Blue Devils won while doing only sabre and lots and lots and lots of dance. Don't get me wrong, their show was gorgeous, but if I had been one of the judges that night, I would have put Escapade on top! I mean think about it, if you use only sabres for a show, that would give you an advantage for warm ups and technique training. You only have to spend time on one piece of equipment Vs. two or three!

I can see why you don't want to judge again.....for the same reasons my friends don't want to.

[SBrancheau]

I have seen some guards this year who are trying to be more involved with equipment work and less on dance or movement, but unfortunately they get shot down because of the sheets. One guard did "double fast spins" on rifle which is rarely seen these days. The kids in the audience jaws dropped when they saw all 24 doing it in sync.

I would love for the guard activity to get back to some serious guard work with less emoting across the floor, but as long as the sheets require so much emphasis on movement, we won't see it.

The year Escapade did their "R.E.M." show was sheer excitement from start to stop.....they should have won, but because of them going on first, they placed 5th! Instead Blue Devils won while doing only sabre and lots and lots and lots of dance. Don't get me wrong, their show was gorgeous, but if I had been one of the judges that night, I would have put Escapade on top! I mean think about it, if you use only sabres for a show, that would give you an advantage for warm ups and technique training. You only have to spend time on one piece of equipment vs. two or three!

Malibu:

That's a shame that Escapade was screwed because of their draw...and as a judge, I tried not to "hold scores". That ticks me off.

Having said that, I'd have given Escapade extra for double fast spins in sync. How many groups are doing that?!

Okay all of you guard mavens, how would you rate Blue Devils for "only" doing sabres? Would you "penalize" them for not using more props, more flags, more rifles? And what about dance, dance, dance? Aren't BDs "dumbing" down their show by using one piece of equipment and lots of dance? Depending on my judging caption, I would penalize for 'lack' of equipment use. Well, maybe not, but you get my drift.

Suppose Escapade and Blue Devils are going head-to-head in competition...Escapade has lots of precision equipment work that gets lots of crowd response and is technically very clean, with little dance. Blue Devils are only using sabres, so the technical aspect is less than Escapade's, but they execute dance fairly well. The ensemble dances well, but not always in unison. Use of visuals is extensive.

Where do you rate them? Most importantly, why?

[sokkerboie]

Suppose Escapade and Blue Devils are going head-to-head in competition...Escapade has lots of precision equipment work that gets lots of crowd response and is technically very clean, with little dance. Blue Devils are only using sabres, so the technical aspect is less than Escapade's, but they execute dance fairly well. The ensemble dances well, but not always in unison. Use of visuals is extensive.

YOu have to realize that (hopefully) the judging is based on vocabulary as well as execution (what they are asked to do and how they do it). Escapade should theoretically receive a better vocabularty score as they have another piece of eq on which to demonstrate vocab...........however if BD even on 2 pieces of eq and movement (which is still in teh vocab column) demonstrates more voacb variety as compared to Escapade doing the same things over and over on all pieces of equipment, then BD should win that caption. And even if Escapade includes a lot of vocab, but their members cannot achieve it all (if the book is written above their skill level, they are not properly trained,etc) then they should not win vocab there. San in reverse for BD. SO you have to weigh both and there is a pretty big continum for scoring those.

But you also have to remember that this entire activity is based on movement, the body adn the body in manipulation of equipment. There can be no equipmetn work without the body.........and that is why there is a minimum amount of time that MUST be spent on eq.....and a judge to monitor this and assign penalties (in many but not all circuits).

And think also, there are some moments where a body only statement creates the most effect.

[SBrancheau]

Sokkerboie:

Excellent explanation. And different terms used than I'm used to (I've been "away" a few years). Thanks for that!

I think the activity is based TOO much on movement. I understand drill movement, but not so much emphasis on "body movement"...to me that reads "dance". Yes, there is body movement in executing equipment work, but many choreographers have taken that WAY overboard and into the dance category.

Lemme ask you this, could a group perform "Swan Lake" in tutus and pointe shoes with just filmy swing flags waving around from time to time? Where and how do you judge this?

Yikes, can you imagine it? :o

Yet, some group will probably do it, if they haven't already.

[Malibu]

.

But you also have to remember that this entire activity is based on movement, the body adn the body in manipulation of equipment. There can be no equipmetn work without the body.........and that is why there is a minimum amount of time that MUST be spent on eq.....and a judge to monitor this and assign penalties (in many but not all circuits).

And think also, there are some moments where a body only statement creates the most effect.

Yes, our circuit uses the WGI sheets as well as the rules & regulations in the WGI manual. You are correct that if a guard comes out and doesn't use enough "body" movement their score will be lower. At the same time I have seen some groups doing too much "dance" or "movement" that the T&P judge will penalize them. SO, what did they do? They just picked up a piece of equipment and held it.....according to the manual, as long as it is in your hand, it is considered equipment work. I strongly believe this is where our desire for more "exciting" equipment work is lost.

Oh, Sally, there was a WGI guard in the early 90's that did come out dressed in Tutus.....they all had formal ballet training. IIRC it was Academy Musical???

They demonstrated many ballet moves.......sorry, but when I saw the first 20 seconds of their show, I had to fast forward my tape.