Qualified to judge?

[GMichael1230]

Body movement used to enhance the guard, now it has taken over the guard and we no longer see thrills with equipment, we see story telling and gyrating, all not together, just for the sake of movement.

Guard from the 80's so very well could set out and achive a place in todays shows. Dance is only there because it is put there, not because the music or the drill(if thats what it is ) require it.

Designing a show for colorguard using equipment as the main idiom can succeed, it almost does in the Blue Devils, Cadets (although too much dance) and Cavaliers......truly intricate, demanding work.

If more tiem was spent building the basics and working the equipment, rather than focusing on adding dancing, moving etc.....Alot of guards would succeed with rock solid execution and effect, all from their equipment..and not their awful costumes and silly dance steps.

~G~

[sokkerboie]

I think movement/dance CAN help, but I agree it has gone overboard......btw......Blue Devils are pretty bad about LONG LONG LONG movement phrases (as are Cadets I'll admit). But one thing a dance phrase also does is to clear the visual palat so that the eye and brain can process another section/phrase. Granted FEW to ANY designers use it this way, but it is effective and lends to effective eq work.

But there needs to be an 80/20 rule for eq and there needs to be greater demonstration of technique in ensemble phrases instead of hiding poor technique by having 8-10-12 visual statements all happening at once for the majority of the show......what are some of the most effective phrases---------------------------->COMPLETE ENSEMBLE FLAG PHRASES. Those get the crowd going. We need more of that. And PLEASE use the tricks sparingly ----------- too much of that going on (5-6-7 people all standing on the floor doing tricks that do absolutely NOTHING than fill time).

[Prphan2]

Personally, I think that the trend started a number of years ago calling the guard auxiliary isn't such a bad idea. Since they really don't do the same type of work that is generally considered traditional guard work, for me it opens up my perception and acceptance of what will be taking place. With movement and dance such a big part of what they do, it kind of makes sense that we should think of them as something other than the guard. I really enjoy watching today's guards for the most part, sometimes a bit too much dance that I just don't get, but then again I'm severely lacking in knowledge of dance and interpretation, which is my problem, not theirs. Just an idea.

And about the evolution of colorguard, right now I'm only going to relate my current experience in the rifle line of the Chicago Royal Airs. The 8 of us range in age from 42-56, and have marched from 1957-1979, with one who instructed rifle into the '80's. It's amazing the changes that occurred during our 22 year span. The one gal who marched in the '50's only did military moves, right-hand spins and an occasional right toss. The ones from the '60's did military moves, right and left-hand spins and right tosses. The couple of us the marched in the '70's did military moves, right and left-hand spins, lots of right-hand doubletime, with some left-hand thrown in for good measure, lots of right and left tosses that were caught in the normal fashion, or under a leg or maybe behind the back. And don't forget turn around triples or doing doubletime on your back. And the rifle exchanges went from facing one another and tossing to throwing over the entire contra line, BACKWARDS!!! From at least 10 yards away. But even though the work got more and more involved, the basis was the same. Precision, sharp and snappy.

BTW....Even tho the '65 RA didn't do doubletime, we're teaching the others how to do it, so keep your eyes open towards the end of Voodoo Moon. :P

[FLDancrgrl]

A long time ago, say, 20 years or so, color guard was a more (I hate to use the word military or regimented, but I guess it fits!) regimented activity. Yes, toes were pointed (because of a high mark-time) and body carriage and arms were not a problem because everyone used "military bearing". Not a floppy arm in sight.

The color guard has been replaced with something that is not to my (and apparently many others') liking...a dance troup that just so happens to utilize some equipment work. This is not guard to me. Yes, some dance can be incorporated IF (and ONLY if) it fits the music and enhances the music.

What is being seen now is NOT guard. Guard is equipment work...rifles, sabres, flags...that enhance and interpret the chosen music. If it done well and properly, very little (if any) dance should be needed. Unfortunately, that is not the case...it's the other way around...guard is dance work (not necessary done well and properly) with very little equipment work.

I'm hoping that DCI and WGI will wake up and begin to reverse the trend. Guard is dying...it's being replaced by a dance corps. That in and of itself is reprehensible. Why? Because WGI and DCI used to be about guards. Look at 1980 27th Lancers...1987 Phantom Regiment or 1987 Cadets. Dance was being incorporated there, but it was the execution of the equipment work that enhanced what the corps were playing. Lots of visuals weren't needed. And now, it's nothing but visuals and "body movement".

If I wanted to go see ballet or jazz dancing, I'd head for my nearest concert hall. When I go to the stadium, I want to see equipment work. Clean, crisp flag work, sabre work, rifle work. And not alot of dancing.

Dancing and "body movement" is much of the reason why I got out of judging. As I said in a previous post, I do have some dance background, but not enough to be able to judge what's being "fielded" now. And, dancing and "body movement" are reasons why I don't attend WGI and winter guard activities. I went to a few marching band shows and was horrified at what I saw. No "discipline" when it came to how the flag/sabre/rifle was being utilized. Just as in dance, there is "discipline" in how equipment work should be executed. And it's not happening.

In an odd, weird sort of way I think we are on the same page.... :) In my opinion dance should be there to enhance. Solo work (or duets... ect), can be gorgeous if done tastefully and that is not what the entire show consists of. You are right, this isn't a dance troup so it defintely shouldn't be the focus of the show. And my monkey reference, I don't think I explained that well enough... :) Yes, you can teach a monkey to throw a 9, you can teach almost anyone to throw a 9. My point was exactly what you guys were saying (but it apparently didn't come out like I wanted it to.. ) The technique is exactly my point. Guards need to know how to control their bodies. That should be part of their fundamental technique. Body control. You guys are more than right about solid catching. I have sat at shows and watch so many guards flub their catches. But you know what is really funny about that? When it is consistent, when most everyone on the guard flubs their catches, they usually don't have very good movement. Now, obviously, this isn't an across the board thing (some people just can't catch period B) ), but just a little point I noticed. But I totally agree that they should be able to do all their guard work consistently, and solidly and together. Guard is guard for a reason and equipment is what makes it guard. You are right Sally, if you wanted to watch a dance concert, you would go to the local theater. Basically guard should be equipment work, not just holding, but actual work, with substance. With that, they should be taught dance technique on how to hold themselves, how to hold their arms, how to point their feet, how to perform, how to have energy flowing through their bodies. Those are all dance fundamentals. So, I agree. The focus should be on the equipment, that is the entire purpose behind what we are doing. The equipment should be executed well, and I agree, it should be disciplined. But, I do think that dance should be judged, and I think that there are moments when it is necessary. Guard is now something that is trying to convey a story or emotions, and putting movement in there is what conveys that. You can't tell that I am longing for something by standing there and throwing a 9. When people do have dance thrown in, they should be judged accordingly. If they put in a triple pirouette and fall out of it, they should be penalized for it, just like they are penalized for dropping their equipment. But, most of the movement judges wouldn't know if they did or didn't complete the turn. Judging has gone soft overall, in my opinion. I'm from a school that kicked my butt everyday! Believe me, we had our equipment down! You don't catch properly and cleanly, it's push-up time! I was taught that discipline and the technique behind what I do, dance and guard. Technique in EVERYTHING they do should be judged. If they dance around with equipment in their hands and don't do very much otherwise, by all means, put them LAST! I don't care how good their dancing is. So, what it boils down to is enhancement, not a cover-up, and proper judging in that category. But, I don't think that an equipment judge should have to worry about movement. So I think you should still be able to judge Sally, and rip every one of them apart for not having proper technique. :)

[FLDancrgrl]

AND LETS GET BACK TO TECHNIQUE!!!!! It's about time some of these so-self-called divas learn that what they are teaching (from a movement standpoint) couldnt' be farther from technically correct - take a few dance classes!

THANK YOU!!!! THANK YOU!!!! THANK YOU!!!! I am SOOOO glad someone else see's that besides me! I could pound some of these "divas" (and I use that term loosly!) into the ground for what they call dance !!

[SBrancheau]

Yes, I believe we ARE on the same page, just talking from different "eras"...oh, man, does that make me feel old!

Back to technique...

Doesn't it send your blood boiling when you see a show and it's so incredibly breathtaking, yet the technique is so sloppy it defies description? I just fume inside and say to myself, "Just give me a week with them...I'd clean that thing up!" That is one of the very best things I do...I'm not as good on dance, but man, can I clean! Most instructors don't know how to break a piece down and clean it. And the thing is to clean it (and keep it clean) before the group has a chance to really get their habits set (bad arm placement, hand positions, foot positions, etc.).

If so many of us want to see a return to more equipment work and less gratuitous dance, what do we have to do? Hopefully, the high muckety-mucks of DCI and WGI are seeing these posts and taking them back to their groups.

Good dialogue, everyone!

[sokkerboie]

Doesn't it send your blood boiling when you see a show and it's so incredibly breathtaking, yet the technique is so sloppy it defies description? I just fume inside and say to myself, "Just give me a week with them...I'd clean that thing up!" That is one of the very best things I do...I'm not as good on dance, but man, can I clean! Most instructors don't know how to break a piece down and clean it. And the thing is to clean it (and keep it clean) before the group has a chance to really get their habits set (bad arm placement, hand positions, foot positions, etc.).

I completely agree with the technique issue. OVer the past 10 years we have seen a GREAT decrease in guards whose technique is (1) consistent both individually and in the ensemble, and (2) identifiable. Therein liesthe problems. We have too many people who can move fairly well who consider themselves "dancers", "movement experts, techs" "choreographers" and/or "designers". I would like to find how many instructors out there understand the basics of dance (vaganova, ceccheti, tharpe, morris, graham, etc). I would like to find instructors out there who understand the basic physics of equipment work.

When I teach work I teach TECHNIQUE TECHNIQUE TECHNIQUE, and I expect my members to achieve the technique. KI also explain what the body does to make technique consistent (muscle effort, placement - both of the equipment AND the body, muscle memory). When members understand what the physical requirements are to complete any equipment basic and/or phrase it will (1) clean up SO MUCH better and faster, (2) be MUCH more consistent. I can't tell you how mnay times I have heard instructors tell students "Just do it this way because I told you to." For me that is LAME!

If we have instructors TEACHING more and "playing" color guard less we will see greater technique, greater understanding in members who will become instructors and judges. Because you can't judge equipment effectively if you don't understand WHAT the body is doing to create effect, weight, flow, space and timeing.

Just my thoughts.

By the way..........if any of you have kids/students who are looking for somewhere to march this summer I teach the San Diego Alliance Drum COrps and we have a few CG openings left. At least with Alliance you know your members will be learning TECHNIQUE (on all pieces of eq as well as standard dance technique) and PERFORMANCE skills. If you see Alliance out and about this summer, find me and intro yourself and let me know what you think of our show (we are always open to input).

Edited April 17, 2003 by sokkerboie

[deftguy]

IMO I think many designers/instructors have mated WGI and field guard into one lump sum. What works in a intimate environment(WGI) often does not translate well to field guard. But the current batch of instructors just don't see it that way. I quit instructing in the middle 90's because though my guards were EXTREMELY technically proficient we did not overutilize dance within any of our shows. We never scored well even though we had clean catches, frequently did double time from the left and right hands, equipment exchanges, work in unison all done cleanly and technically correct.

I think dance has killed equipment handling and will eventually lead to the rifle, flag, and sabre less show. No recognizable equipment. I think dance has taken away the surprise and thrill from guard work. I draw from my own experience with the Cavs to illustrate what I am talking about. Our 79 show was not very good IMO, but when the rifle line picked up two rifles and spun one over the head and one in front, the crowd went nuts. In 80 we did at least 8 equipment exchanges, five during the last 25 counts of the drum solo and including one ten yard flag toss. The crowd loved it. 81 was exactly the same and so was 82. Every time a surprise move happen, it brought excitement to a show. Take the 27th lancer colorguard from 79-82, very difficult but extremely well executed guard book. Especially the rifle line. Can someone tell me when the last time a crowd jumped to its feet behind a ballet move, or the waltz ala BD 2002? Beautiful to look at, but not exciting. By the time I aged out in 86, we weren't even spinning the rifle anymore. By 83 everyone except 27th and Madison had quit spinning their rifles(if they were using them at all CADETS) and started posing with them, or moving them from hand to hand with kicks and jumps. Dance started coming fast and furious by 85.

I love something Steve B told me one day. He said that if it can't be seen from the pressbox, or doesn't make people jump to their feet, then its a wasted move. That probably explains the constant tossing, tumbling, flag tosses over horn lines and props, rifle tosses over a pyramid of guard members, and MANY other outrageous things done CLEANLY that his furtle mind thought up b**bs

Dancing should be apart of colorguard within the realm of WGI only. IMO it is totally inappropriate for the field. When you ask what the best colorguards were, 27th lancers 79-80 guard will be at the top of that list. Will the 2002 BD? Not on mine.

Edited April 18, 2003 by deftguy

[Malibu]

Yes, I understand where you are coming from, as I was marching in that same era. I too saw "dance" fast approaching in the early 80s and hoped it would not prevail to what it has become today. It sickens me to see groups spinning their hearts out with great technique only to be scored low because of "not enough movement."

A local Independent guard taught by a guy you marched with in Cavies, would make you proud to know that those rifle tosses and exchanges still live on today. The kids in the audience would go wild, simply because it was exciting to see something out of the ordinary.....something that was not dance related and was very difficult and challenging! I'm not saying that dance moves are not challenging, I'm saying a lot of guard moves (not body) are sorely missed today.

It seems it all started out with a "little body" under the equipment, now it's total opposite. Hopefully, all this is like a circle.....I'm waiting for it to become full again!

[sokkerboie]

Deftguy, thanks for pointing out that we are dealing with two different animals between winter guard and corps/marching band. Designers have to design differently for each due to the proximity ofthe audience. And I agree, lets keep the dance and movement to the WGI floor and keep those phrases on the field that bring the audience to their feet - and that is equipment work with strong solid technique.