Qualified to judge?

[SBrancheau]

Oh, Sally, there was a WGI guard in the early 90's that did come out dressed in Tutus.....they all had formal ballet training. IIRC it was Academy Musical???

They demonstrated many ballet moves.......sorry, but when I saw the first 20 seconds of their show, I had to fast forward my tape.

It freaking figures.

ampssuck

I'd fast-forward the tape also.

Sheesh.

[SBrancheau]

At the same time I have seen some groups doing too much "dance" or "movement" that the T&P judge will penalize them. SO, what did they do? They just picked up a piece of equipment and held it.....according to the manual, as long as it is in your hand, it is considered equipment work. I strongly believe this is where our desire for more "exciting" equipment work is lost. 

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is where I draw the line in the sand.

Let's find the loopholes in the WGI manual so that we can "field" a group that has strong dance skills but can't handle the heavy-duty equipment work. "We'll just hold this rifle for 64 counts while we pirouette across the floor".

That's not guard in my opinion. Shame on WGI for allowing it. Shame on choreographers for "fielding" it. Can't blame it on the guard members because they probably don't know any better...that's all they've seen other groups do.

Let's put a video of 27th Lancers or the Cavies' James Bond show in front of them...

Think they'll want to go back to pirouetting with a rifle for 64 counts? I'll bet not.

[sokkerboie]

I agree with you all. I come from a dance background, have worked professionally in theatre and dance. But in this medium (which is NOT a dance company), if you ahve a piece of equipment, I want to see how you interpret the music WITH that equipment as well as with your body. I think a lot of programs too have jsut written work, and after show books are written put it to music - no musicality or interpretation of the verious musical lines (yes there is more than just the primary melody). And a lot of designers are just reliving phrases from old shows they like, or shows they have spun before, or taking too much emphasis on body - because body with equipmetn IS more challenging to perform AND TO DESIGN AND TEACH. I see very little "learning" going on from the instructors and designers of today - when this happens you see greater depth of vocabulary, expression and more exciting use of body WITH equipment.

Anyway, off topic. HOPEFULLY all the judging captions work hand to hand - the T&P ensures that they are using equipment through a MAJORITY of their show, the Performance caption evalutates their use of vocabularly, the ensemble caption looks to whether there is training in the group (technique) and if the books are written to challenge the members but allow them to achieve success, and the GE caption looks to whether it all (dance, eq, color, form/drill/staging, impact, breath) all work together to achieve some effect for the audience - does it convey the ideas of the program and (GOD FORBID) the music.

That is what I think - in the perfect world (just liek those Walgreens commercials) - judging would be like.

Edited April 7, 2003 by sokkerboie

[masterles]

Just a thought.

Knowing that dance is such a major portion of colorguard these days versus equipment work, I love to see a survey all the instructors out there. There is no doubt of a correlation between instructors and the current decline of equipment work to dance work. Considering that many instructors are graduates from high school, their knowledge base is limited to their understanding of the years they competed. The guards are inherently limited by instructor knowledge. Its a snowball effect, as the colorguard shows demand less and less equipment, the instructors will know less and less to teach their colorguards as well as future colorguard instructors. Since the scoring sheets for guard don't seem to be changing any time soon, it seems to me if equipment work will once again be the focus of colorguard there needs to be a significant effort to educate instructors.

I am not sure how to go about doing that, but it seems a start. I know clinics are out there, but many are too expensive or too far away to be of any use. I haven't seen an instructional video, but from what I've heard, they are only helpful to beginners.

I guess I would like to see other solutions for colorguard besides the fact that judges and scoring sheets need to change. I think it is important to know where instructors are coming from experience-wise, and an analysis of instructor experience may yield results in understanding the current trends in colorguard.

I would really like to see a comparison between corps vs. non-corps instructors, as well as an age comparison, and see if there is any correlation to be found.

[sokkerboie]

I would TOTALLY agree with you MAsterles........that the correlation is there.

And many programs are now hiring their alumni only..........that kind of inbreeding leads to boring and lifeless shows.

I think the general attitude out there is "I'm the S**t so don't try to help me improve." I see very few designers and instructors who talk with each other about effectiveness, technique, design issues......too much caddy #####ing (sorry probably can't use that word). I come from programs where the advice of peers and those who have been in teh biz longer is a HIGHLY invaluable thing - even jsut for a read some afternoon. And where when someone offers advice, it's not taken personally, but to improve the product and the program.

And I hate to say it, many MANY MANY of the instructors out there are teaching POOR and INCORRECT technique when it comes to dance.

I guess there is no easy answer other than for those of us who care, to continue to work with quality programs, write good shows, communicate with judges, when we judge expecting quality and communicating that. Hopefully there are enough to start making changes.

[SBrancheau]

And many programs are now hiring their alumni only..........that kind of inbreeding leads to boring and lifeless shows.

And I hate to say it, many MANY MANY of the instructors out there are teaching POOR and INCORRECT technique when it comes to dance.

Yeah, no kidding!

To save money, many schools are "hiring" Suzy Flag and Becky Sabre, alumnae who weren't the best or strongest in technique. So, they're passing their bad technique onto a new generation who don't know any better. Then, they come back to help the guard and technique gets worse.

My high school did not do this (except in the percussion line, and the assistant band director was a percussionist, so he made sure those who helped had VERY good skills). At first I was rather put out by it, but I understood part of it. The girls would know me and not necessarily accept my input. So, I didn't start teaching guard until I marched for a year at college and taught summer camps. Band directors would call the university looking for someone to help out their guard.

I never did help out at my high school...but they did well in spite of it!

b**bs

[FLDancrgrl]

At the same time I have seen some groups doing too much "dance" or "movement" that the T&P judge will penalize them. SO, what did they do? They just picked up a piece of equipment and held it.....according to the manual, as long as it is in your hand, it is considered equipment work. I strongly believe this is where our desire for more "exciting" equipment work is lost. 

Let's find the loopholes in the WGI manual so that we can "field" a group that has strong dance skills but can't handle the heavy-duty equipment work. "We'll just hold this rifle for 64 counts while we pirouette across the floor".

Ok, a couple points. I agree. That should not be considered using the equipment. Second, it is almost impossible to pirouette across the floor. You would have to turn, stop, take a couple steps and do it again, because pirouettes don't travel. I believe you are referring to a piqué. Now, I'm not pointing that out to be offensive (so my apologies if it came out that way), I'm trying to make the point that people in guard are not educated in dance. I read from someone that the guard instructors dance technique is usually not that good, and I TOTALLY AGREE!! I want to go out there and slap some of these instructors for putting what they call "dance" onto the floor. I have been on a soapbox about judging, and especially movement, for awhile now. I have read through the posts and I agree that there definitely needs to be a change in some of the rules and the judging. But here is what I don't understand.... how can these guards be good without movement? How? How can people say that guards need to move away from dance? Most of the point is the line drawn by the body into the equipment, how they become one and the same... The connection is amazing! Someone out on the floor who can throw a 9 on rifle, awesome. They are great. But I can teach a monkey to throw a rifle (maybe not a 9, but.. you understand my point). If they go out there, execute their work with energized bodies, pointed toes and uplifed faces, performing to the crowd... then and ONLY then do they have my attention. Guard has evolved a lot since it began, and I agree there does need to be a line. There should be specific requirements for equipment, and holding a piece of equipment should not constitute using it. The reason colorguard isn't dance is because of the equipment. So, therefore, a majority of the show should be equipment. But if someone is uneducated in the art of dance... the show falls apart. I'm sorry, but it does. A guard with floppy feet and loose arms that aren't held properly and no body carriage, but they can spin well? How does that constitute a good guard? I wouldn't want to watch that! But yet I do; all the time. I agree, guards try to make up for their weaknesses on equipment in dance. And if they do they do that, they should definitely be judged accordingly. I mean, for the love of god! If she can't do the flag block, PLEASE don't send her out there for a dance solo to save her feelings!! NONONO!! Wrong execution in dance should count as well, but most of the judges in movement have no idea how these movements are supposed to be executed in the first place! Guards should be well rounded. I'm not saying they should go out there and perform a triple pirouette followed by a chassé into a grande jeté en tournant, but if they can do it why not? And if it isn't executed correctly they should be penalized for it. The movement judges need to have experience as well. Dance has definitely entered into the world of guard, and I like it. I think it adds a lot to the sport. But if you are going to do something, DO IT RIGHT!! My piece of advice for guards out there... I don't care if you can dance or not... BUT!! You NEED to POINT YOUR FEET! and HOLD YOUR ARMS!! Without this, there is no completion of the line, therefore no completion of the picture you are trying to convey. And if you are going to execute triple pirouette with a chassé into a grande jeté en tournant right afterwards, then please make sure that you know what that is and how to execute it! I believe that these two arts are very much apart of each other, and I believe that they compliment well. I think there should be a judging system like in figure skating. Your guard has to execute this, this and this before the end of the show. If not, you get points deducted. It doesn't affect anyones flow or creativity in figure skating and it would help make sure that these guards are really living up to their full equipment capabilites, and not trying to slide by on movement. So, there is my soapbox, thanks :)

[SBrancheau]

FLDancrgrl:

You made some valid points, but lemme add this:

A long time ago, say, 20 years or so, color guard was a more (I hate to use the word military or regimented, but I guess it fits!) regimented activity. Yes, toes were pointed (because of a high mark-time) and body carriage and arms were not a problem because everyone used "military bearing". Not a floppy arm in sight.

The color guard has been replaced with something that is not to my (and apparently many others') liking...a dance troup that just so happens to utilize some equipment work. This is not guard to me. Yes, some dance can be incorporated IF (and ONLY if) it fits the music and enhances the music.

What is being seen now is NOT guard. Guard is equipment work...rifles, sabres, flags...that enhance and interpret the chosen music. If it done well and properly, very little (if any) dance should be needed. Unfortunately, that is not the case...it's the other way around...guard is dance work (not necessary done well and properly) with very little equipment work.

I'm hoping that DCI and WGI will wake up and begin to reverse the trend. Guard is dying...it's being replaced by a dance corps. That in and of itself is reprehensible. Why? Because WGI and DCI used to be about guards. Look at 1980 27th Lancers...1987 Phantom Regiment or 1987 Cadets. Dance was being incorporated there, but it was the execution of the equipment work that enhanced what the corps were playing. Lots of visuals weren't needed. And now, it's nothing but visuals and "body movement".

If I wanted to go see ballet or jazz dancing, I'd head for my nearest concert hall. When I go to the stadium, I want to see equipment work. Clean, crisp flag work, sabre work, rifle work. And not alot of dancing.

Dancing and "body movement" is much of the reason why I got out of judging. As I said in a previous post, I do have some dance background, but not enough to be able to judge what's being "fielded" now. And, dancing and "body movement" are reasons why I don't attend WGI and winter guard activities. I went to a few marching band shows and was horrified at what I saw. No "discipline" when it came to how the flag/sabre/rifle was being utilized. Just as in dance, there is "discipline" in how equipment work should be executed. And it's not happening.

[Malibu]

]At the same time I have seen some groups doing too much "dance" or "movement" that the T&P judge will penalize them. SO, what did they do? They just picked up a piece of equipment and held it.....according to the manual, as long as it is in your hand, it is considered equipment work. I strongly b

Ok, a couple points.  I agree.  That should not be considered using the equipment.  Second, it is almost impossible to pirouette across the floor.  You would have to turn, stop, take a couple steps and do it again, because pirouettes don't travel.  I believe you are referring to a piqué.  Now, I'm not pointing that out to be offensive (so my apologies if it came out that way), I'm trying to make the point that people in guard are not educated in dance.  I read from someone that the guard instructors dance technique is usually not that good, and I TOTALLY AGREE!!  I want to go out there and slap some of these instructors for putting what they call "dance" onto the floor.  I have been on a soapbox about judging, and especially movement, for awhile now.  I have read through the posts and I agree that there definitely needs to be a change in some of the rules and the judging.  But here is what I don't understand....  how can these guards be good without movement?  How?  How can people say that guards need to move away from dance?  Most of the point is the line drawn by the body into the equipment, how they become one and the same...  The connection is amazing!  Someone out on the floor who can throw a 9 on rifle, awesome.  They are great.  But I can teach a monkey to throw a rifle (maybe not a 9, but.. you understand my point).  If they go out there, execute their work with energized bodies, pointed toes and uplifed faces, performing to the crowd... then and ONLY then do they have my attention.  Guard has evolved a lot since it began, and I agree there does need to be a line.  There should be specific requirements for equipment, and holding a piece of equipment should not constitute using it.  The reason colorguard isn't dance is because of the equipment.  So, therefore, a majority of the show should be equipment.  But if someone is uneducated in the art of dance... the show falls apart.  I'm sorry, but it does.  A guard with floppy feet and loose arms that aren't held properly and no body carriage, but they can spin well?  How does that constitute a good guard?  I wouldn't want to watch that!  But yet I do; all the time.  I agree, guards try to make up for their weaknesses on equipment in dance.  And if they do they do that, they should definitely be judged accordingly.  I mean, for the love of god!  If she can't do the flag block, PLEASE don't send her out there for a dance solo to save her feelings!!  NONONO!!  Wrong execution in dance should count as well, but most of the judges in movement have no idea how these movements are supposed to be executed in the first place!  Guards should be well rounded.  I'm not saying they should go out there and perform a triple pirouette followed by a chassé into a grande jeté en tournant, but if they can do it why not?  And if it isn't executed correctly they should be penalized for it.  The movement judges need to have experience as well.  Dance has definitely entered into the world of guard, and I like it.  I think it adds a lot to the sport.  But if you are going to do something, DO IT RIGHT!!  My piece of advice for guards out there... I don't care if you can dance or not... BUT!!  You NEED to POINT YOUR FEET! and HOLD YOUR ARMS!!  Without this, there is no completion of the line, therefore no completion of the picture you are trying to convey.  And if you are going to execute triple pirouette with a chassé into a grande jeté en tournant right afterwards, then please make sure that you know what that is and how to execute it!  I believe that these two arts are very much apart of each other, and I believe that they compliment well.  I think there should be a judging system like in figure skating.  Your guard has to execute this, this and this before the end of the show.  If not, you get points deducted.  It doesn't affect anyones flow or creativity in figure skating and it would help make sure that these guards are really living up to their full equipment capabilites, and not trying to slide by on movement.  So, there is my soapbox, thanks  :)

You are correct that a person judging Movement should be experienced in dance as well as guard. You said "you could teach a monkey how to throw a 9." Perhaps, BUT can you get him to catch it with proper technique? I agree, ANYONE can chuck a rifle in the air and it would look amazing, but catching it is another thing. THIS is what I'm missing with the guards who concentrate too much on dance. They spend soooooo much time on dance technique that catching a rifle, sabre or flag with proper technique is lost.

Yes, dance makes it interesting, but let's not make the emphasis so much on dance. We have to keep in mind this is about guard not "Sally Fu-Fu's Dance Team." B)

Edited April 15, 2003 by Malibu

[SBrancheau]

Yes, dance makes it interesting, but let's not make the emphasis so much on dance. We have to keep in mind this is about guard not "Sally Fu-Fu's Dance Team."  B)

:yeah!:

NOT Sally Fu-Fu! :P

Most guard instructors out there have that mentality...oh, we'll work the dance movements to death...here's flag...this is how you spin it. Ready? Go!

Where's the technique? Where's the finesse? I've got a surprise for you out there: it takes talent, finesse and strength to PROPERLY execute equipment work. Amazing, isn't it?

When you say a monkey could throw a 9, yes, he/she could. Could he/she catch it? What about a guard full of monkeys? Can they all throw 9s? With proper hand placement, syncronized rotation and uniform rotation height? That's like saying you could train a monkey to grande jete...okay, you probably could. Now how about a dance troupe full of them? What about their technique, fluidity and uniformity? Shouldn't it look like one monkey performing a grande jete?

We've got to re-establish guard as it should be...more equipment work, less dance.