In light of the retreat discussion

[byline]

Some of you are trying to turn DCI into the NFL (No Fun League)

Certain Corps are always going to do their thing. Don't let it rub you the wrong way. If you love the strict, military stuff, then jump on the Cadets and SCV train and ride out.

Honestly, too much seriousness will ruin a man. Have fun.

There's a big difference between having your own style, doing your own thing within your own 10 yards, and forcing your way into the space of other corps in anything other than a congratulatory way. Breaking ranks? Back in my day, you just didn't do it . . . or you suffered the consequences. Bridgemen were great at doing their own thing. Same with Velvet Knights. Both were competitive corps yet irreverent, had fun and didn't take themselves too seriously. But when it came to other corps, they respected the uniform, maintained decorum and didn't pull goofy stunts with other corps like some of the stuff I've read about.

Of course, young people will be young people. Sometimes I did goofy things that, in hindsight, I wished I hadn't; we all did. The point of being trained in specific standards of discipline while in uniform (and that includes retreat) is that hopefully that training overrides any errant "Wouldn't it be hilarious if I did this?" ideas that may come into one's mind while in uniform. Seasons were long and hard then too, and we were just as susceptible to wanting to blow off steam as corps members are today. But we were trained to think in terms of our actions reflecting on our group, not to think solely in terms of ourselves. So I knew that any funny ideas I might have had were trumped by my fear of getting caught, and the consequences that would come with it. Of course, as time went by, there was a certain amount of pride in being able to control myself to the point that I knew my actions would reflect well on my corps, thanks to that training. But even though we all had the same training, everyone had to buy in to the philosophy for it to work. Because, as we've seen in this thread, all it takes is one or two bad apples to spoil the bunch. That is precisely why we were trained as we were, because people with way more life experience than I had saw the wisdom of that. That doesn't mean we were reduced to blindly unquestioning automatons. Far from it. We just knew that as soon as that uniform went on, there were certain standards -- pride and respect of history, the uniform, the flag, our corps' traditions, other corps' traditions, drum corps tradition in general, etc. -- we were expected to uphold. And, for the most part, we did.

Edited August 17, 2008 by byline

[byline]

Here is the quote from the instructor I was talking about. It's post #298 on the closed Cadets classy retreat thread:

I think this is all just another chapter in the book of "How Drum Corps Has (And Continues to) Change". Look, people did some disrespectful things on Saturday and it was stupid. It doesn't bother me so much but I respect that it does bother many others. I think byline hit it on the nose - the training isn't the same anymore. I'm a fairly young instructor (23) and I'll be honest: I'm not all about tradition and discipline. At the same time I understand the importance and gravity of representing an organization because I try to be a respectful person at all times, but I'm not going to emphasize those values when I teach, I'm going to emphasize excellence in performance because that is what I view as being most important. Now I'm not saying that the days of tradition and discipline are gone, nor should they be. I'm just saying that perhaps the new generation of instructors isn't emphasizing those values, and this is the unfortunate result.

These comments got me thinking about how many young instructors are out there, and how many may think the same way. And many of the kids who go off to teach lower tier, etc. come from the "best of the best" of DCI that I was referring to. They bring their own set of experiences with them, and that again made me wonder just how much of this is kind of organically growing out there without any conscious acknowledgement.

Yup, I understand where you're coming from. And since the other thread was closed, I'll add a reply I made to provide a bit more context to the whole "performance vs. behavior" aspect, and why I believe there should not be "vs." in that sentiment:

I think we can and should do both. Values and excellence in performance are not mutually exclusive terms . . . and sometimes they intersect in ways that we can't anticipate, but need to deal with because we are teaching young people. I'll give an example: When I was teaching a high school color guard back in the mid-'80s, there was a timing problem in a particular section of the show. I kept breaking it down, working that section, and it still wasn't coming together. After rehearsal, I was talking with one of the guard members, who was white (you'll see the importance of my mentioning this in a sec). She made a comment about one of the other guard members who was having trouble with the work, but said she had an attitude problem and wouldn't take instruction "because, ya know, she's black."

Well, I was so stunned to hear anyone say this, especially this gal who, up until that moment, I'd had a lot of respect for. She was a talented girl, a great performer, probably one of the best kids who ever marched for me . . . but then that popped out of her mouth. You could've knocked me over with a feather, because she was about the last person I would've expected to say something like that.

When I finally found my voice, I told her that I did not want to hear her, or anyone else (because there were other guard members within earshot) say anything like that to me ever again. "You can believe whatever you want, but in my guard you will not say that, you will not demean other guard members based on their skin color . . . or anything else, for that matter. (Name of the other gal) may well have an attitude problem, but it has nothing to do with the color of her skin. She is who she is, just as we all are, and there are about a thousand different things that come together to make us who we are." Blah, blah, blah. I was fuming. She took a few steps back and looked a little stunned, herself. But she never made that kind of comment in my presence ever again.

There are times when, no matter what, you have to take a stand. And, as a teacher, you have to teach that there are things in life just as important as, and sometimes more important than, performance.

[Dave]

I agree 100%. In a more general sense, it's one of the things about the overall direction of junior corps that has bothered me as of late. Dropping any sense of a greater good in the name of becoming good performers, and little else. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that the problem lies not simply in drum corps, but in the heart of man. I'm not going to go on a big philosophical and theological speech here, but this is a problem bigger than drum corps.

[Liam]

I agree 100%. In a more general sense, it's one of the things about the overall direction of junior corps that has bothered me as of late. Dropping any sense of a greater good in the name of becoming good performers, and little else. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that the problem lies not simply in drum corps, but in the heart of man. I'm not going to go on a big philosophical and theological speech here, but this is a problem bigger than drum corps.

Yep -- where's the "Philosophical and Theological Planet" formus so we can tackle this in the proper venue?

[GreenTrumpetier]

I shoulda known if i posted somthing people were gonna bash it anywho oh well.

Edited August 17, 2008 by GreenTrumpetier

[Kekkles]

lmao @ that wall of text

*is crushed*

EDIT: nice spelling by the way.

*continues to be crushed*

Edited August 17, 2008 by Kekkles

[GreenTrumpetier]

lmao @ that wall of text

*is crushed*

EDIT: nice spelling by the way.

*continues to be crushed*

sorry teacher I'll be better next time.

[general_tso_chicken53]

First of all he didnt pass out. we killed him with a katana.

And seriously guys why the hell are you bashing us we were just having fun. In know way have we ever done anything to blantly disrespect any corps or its members in a seriouse way. OMG we crossed a yard line at a marching band competition. We werent killing eachother in any respect to corps placment or scores except for ours.. It's called Sepuko or "Death before dishonor." Dont ever tell me that we were not "The Cvaliers" that night unless you have rooked out or marched 2 or more years you have no idea what it means to be a Cavalier. And don't you dare say Bruno is the reason for this so called "bad behavior". I could of never asked for a better summer at it was because of Bruno. Unlike some other organizations we got fed everyday and even fed people from other corps who said they were hungry, we got sleep and still rehersed very well. The number one thing in Bruno's mind all summer was to make sure that his kids had the ebst summer ever and it was a very much mission accomplished. As for hopkins I dont think he was really that ###### weve talked to him before as much of a strict dictator some of you think he is he understands why we do the things we do and he cracks jokes about them to us. We have always shown respect for other corps. Semi finals night as the blue devils were walkin off the field we clapped for the entire corps and assured them they had a good show and what did they do a week earlyer.. As there contra players walked by us when we were stretching they carryed them on the shoulders and proceeded to hold there tubas with a middle finger up towards us. We could of easaly done somthing like that but did we no we clapped. We proceeded to walk by Phantom Regiment after they were anounced champions and congradulated them. And we played ATB right we didnt squeal or hang over as much as we all wanted to because the arrangment is not a good one already. Sorry that we didnt all please you and stood like pieces of wood stuck into the ground.. Its our summer we paid for it and were making memories for ourselves and not once did any member of another organization ever tell us that they didnt like what we were doing. Never once did we sit there and tell ourselves.. "hey lets kill ourselves and fall over the line to disrespect everyone and #### em off." We dont hate anyother corps and that includes the blue devils some times we dont get along but we still admire what they put on the field, and never would we intentionally do anything to make anyone else look bad. If your so ###### off about someone crossing a yard line on the field id hate to see how uptight you all are with other things in your life. Spend a week with the Cavaliers and come back and tell me it wasnt the most fun youve ever had.. Very few people would come back saying that. So who all those that are trashing us trashing other corps and trashing the fact we were having fun, think back at a time you were our age and tell me that you were nothing but strict by the book people and if you were.. I truly am sorry that you never had fun.

I think posts like this are the reason most corps don't let their members post on dcp... in 'know' way did this post help your corps image.

sorry, I did like your show though

[Dave]

You're not talking to ignoramuses (ignoramii?). You're talking to people with plenty of their own drum corps experience, and even people who understand all about the Cavaliers whether from their own years there or being connected with them in other ways. You're young, man, so give yourself some time (ha! like I'm old or something), and you will come to understand us better. It's not about "we don't like that they're having fun." It's about the idea that there's a certain way to conduct oneself in that situation, and while Cavaliers have always been known for being rather lax at retreat, many are saying that what some did that night crossed the line. Fun is not the arbiter of good and bad, and in many cases the fun thing is the wrong thing--not because it's fun, but because it is destructive to others or to the self in some way. In this case, it is destructive to the sense of respect for others that is supposed to be one of the fundamental values of drum corps (and, by extension, the rest of the world); it has been reduced to "I want to do it because it's fun."

[GreenTrumpetier]

You're not talking to ignoramuses (ignoramii?). You're talking to people with plenty of their own drum corps experience, and even people who understand all about the Cavaliers whether from their own years there or being connected with them in other ways. You're young, man, so give yourself some time (ha! like I'm old or something), and you will come to understand us better. It's not about "we don't like that they're having fun." It's about the idea that there's a certain way to conduct oneself in that situation, and while Cavaliers have always been known for being rather lax at retreat, many are saying that what some did that night crossed the line. Fun is not the arbiter of good and bad, and in many cases the fun thing is the wrong thing--not because it's fun, but because it is destructive to others or to the self in some way. In this case, it is destructive to the sense of respect for others that is supposed to be one of the fundamental values of drum corps (and, by extension, the rest of the world); it has been reduced to "I want to do it because it's fun."

Dave no your not that old your only 25 or so. I myself am 21 and though you have been around the activity a little longer than I have I started my DCI experiance in 2003 and have gained respect for all of the orginizations. Ive marched with the small corps such as Revolution from san antonio tx to the middle groups or low end of the div1 such as magic and finished with a very good organization ageing out in The Cavaliers. Im sure we would even invite people over into our blcok and heck we would give em jolly ranchers. It just seems that an activity with so much value for the members and such good experiances its kind of childish in its own sense to sit there and recap the whole season to hey look a cavalier crassed a yard line. Theres so much more worth while things to be talking about, and bashing corps and people is also childish.