Corps with a current identity crisis

[wesleyrp]

Haha...interesting perspective. What I disagree most with is that the cadets had some sort of unifying identity from the 80's to 2004. Almost as ridiculous is the suggestion that they have 'changed everything that made them bad***'. You speak of crazy drill in the closer, and 'tearing it up' as if it was a thing of the past...seriously??? Did you watch this year...or last year for that matter?? blind company fronts at 215 bpm?? The last minute of vesuvius??? You can call the cadets on a lot of things, but you look silly when you disregard what pretty much all of dcp unanimously accepts.

As far as alienating fans...well yeah. I think most people will agree - the same cadets are still there ... its just hard to enjoy it with all the bs on top. Sort of like a hot chick with a huge mole on her face. Still hot, but kinda hard to enjoy it, no matter how many people tell you to 'look past it'

I love you last comment, it made me laugh out loud. I guess there could be such a thing as a "sexy mole" though.

As to your views of this year and last year, yeah I watched and yeah I was impressed: for about 2 minutes of the show. The drill you speak of was in the closer this pass year and while it was cool it was a flash in the pan to me, in an otherwise forgettable show. As for '07, I like bits and pieces of the show, but to me it tended to drag on in design and drill. I also believe the performance levels of the corps while good, were not Amazing! I believe they placed 2nd not only because they were a fine drum corps, but because Cavies went psycho and played Billy Joel and Phantom's '07 design left a bit to be desired. Did they deserve the placement? Sure, but it did not WOW me like other Cadets shows have. While yeah I may not care for narration, I thought the first Zone show was narratively controlled and the show itself was way creative and had all the elements I mentioned in my first post. '05 was impressive to me, the last 3 shows have not been IMO. I also think that at present they have relied on gimmics for their show instead of letting the members/performances do the talking. Hence this creates the "identity" crises I see for The Cadets. As for the last statement in your top paragraph, I could care o less what most the DCP group accepts as truth. That would be like saying that because we all like eggs, there is only one way to scramble them. Just as a presidential debate proves large groups of people agree, it also proves there are many that don't and that's why we have our own beliefs. Good conversing with you, I respect your answers.

Wes Perkins

BK '97 '98

[BonesBari08-13]

The Crossmen have always had an identity, and a tradition that has always carried on even through the move to Texas. Even though the corps lives in Texas, it will always be an East Coast corps. The tradition (along with the groove) will always be there no matter where they hang their aussies. Its really shocking to me that anyone would think they are a new corps with an old name.

[cadetzoid]

Not an overzealous alumnus (the latter is obvious), but I certainly did enjoy their 2008 program a whole lot more than the previous few years. The problem with what Sal did -- from what I understand from having read other people's assessments of what happened -- is that while it might have been forward-thinking from a creative standpoint, the expenses incurred nearly drove the corps into financial bankruptcy . . . which Madison has been paying off ever since. Apparently it was not a sustainable practice for Madison. So the corps had a twofold challenge: to pay down its debt and also try to put on a competitive program. While others may feel that Madison is trying too hard to go back to the good ol' days, IMO, having that linkage with the past is important because it's part of what gives a corps its identity. I felt this year was a good blend of Madison style with a contemporary feel. But I also realize that these perceptions are highly subjective, and many are based on whatever baggage each individual brings into his or her attitude about what constitutes a memorable image for a corps.

I agree that one of the components of Madison's strength in years past has been a strong color guard, and they need to work on beefing that up. But having said that, I remain impressed with the huge strides Madison's guard made this year. That tells me they are capable of putting together a strong guard program.

One of the things that puzzles me is when people talk about the lack of young men in guard. People say that the vast majority of guard members are female, and that's true, yet I see quite a few young men marching WGI. So, unless a lot of these guys choose not to march year-round (and that certainly is a possibility), why is it so hard for the all-male corps to attract sufficient numbers to the guard? (I've read that even Cavaliers didn't march as many guard as they originally intended.) Surely there are more than 80 guys marching winter guard, right?

In regards to your comments about Sal:

OK, I will start with apologies first. I do not mean to hurt your feelings nor single you out. I am sorry if I upset you. I am angry. I love the Madison Scouts and want them to fulfill their missions in every was possible ASAP, without hurting anyone, certainly not their members. Your posts are usually fairly benign and fair. Your passion for the activity and the Scouts is admirable. I seriously doubt that you are riddled with malice, BUT...

Please stop airing dirty, old, nobody-wants-to-hear-it-anymore, unproven, unprofessional, degrading, unhelpful, unsubstantiated, one-sided, shallow, low-hitting, pathetic, point-the-finger-somewhere-else, not-your-place, adolescent, alumni-fueled, slanderous, malignant, shameful, contestable, offensive, near-illegal, hurtful, pandering, belittling, unfair, Madison Scouts private frickin issues on this or any other public forum.

I DO NOT CARE !!!!!!!

You people do this so flippantly, you don't even notice you are doing it any more! It is pathetic and sad! Your posts reads like these things you write about Sal, a real living person by the way, are just common every-day lighthearted communication of which you can toss around anytime. Do you think he is going to come on here and defend himself to hearsay or something? Maybe all of you know that he will not so it is somehow fun...you know...slam the guy over and over, wrongfully thinking you risk nothing.

LEAVE IT BE !!!!!!!

Try this on and see what ya' think.

YOU become corps director. Your passion for Scouts is evident and you put your self fully into their success. You make mistakes as we all would, maybe big mistakes. The board fires you. Maybe you miss spent money. Maybe the board didn't like the direction shows were going. Maybe they found you difficult to work with...what ever. OK, you are fired and for YEARS...yes I said YEARS, people (from that corps you poured your life into) come onto DCP (as you all have been doing) and say

"The problem with what _________ (insert your name here) did -- from what I understand from having read other people's assessments of what happened -- is that while it might have been forward-thinking from a creative standpoint, the expenses incurred nearly drove the corps into financial bankruptcy . . . which Madison has been paying off ever since."

These are your words. You are using them to keep the conjecture alive. Rather than your name in that blank, how about any one's name? It is not right.

Whose side of the story have you heard? What official documents have you seen? You use it to support your opinion, using it as truth. So why not just say it yourself rather than stating it is what others are writing? Have you spoken with Sal at length so he could give his side of the story? Many people saying it does not make it right or OK to repeat publicly.

Removing yourself by saying you are just repeating what others have written does not make you innocent of participating in continuing to stir this mire. What others have written? Do you mean here on DCP? On official affidavits?

Its called slander, and I am tired of reading it here. I am tired of what it is doing to people's perceptions of the Madison Scouts. Like it or not, all the people that come on here, or sit in the stands next to you guys and hear you talk about the radical, overtly negative, slam-your-own-corps'-past stuff about Scouts makes it harder for people to support or even care what happens to Scouts anymore. If you think the impressionable members of Scouts and other corps are not on here reading this crap, you are mistaken. It is self-destructive, whether the corps made finals or not, there is NO justification. This garbage is apparently still shared, floating around, discussed among the anti Sal people, part of your Scouts vernacular. These kinds of things fester, take hold tightly, and become a permanent part of the group with which you associate, meet, and promote. As soon as Sal's name gets worn out, you will all find somewhere else to place this negativity WITHIN YOUR GROUP. Fine. Just stop exposing me to it.

Edited August 26, 2008 by cadetzoid

[BigSnareline]

In regards to your comments about Sal:

OK, I will start with apologies first. I do not mean to hurt your feelings nor single you out. I am sorry if I upset you. I am angry. I love the Madison Scouts and want them to fulfill their missions in every was possible ASAP, without hurting anyone, certainly not their members. Your posts are usually fairly benign and fair. Your passion for the activity and the Scouts is admirable. I seriously doubt that you are riddled with malice, BUT...

Please stop airing dirty, old, nobody-wants-to-hear-it-anymore, unproven, unprofessional, degrading, unhelpful, unsubstantiated, one-sided, shallow, low-hitting, pathetic, point-the-finger-somewhere-else, not-your-place, adolescent, alumni-fueled, slanderous, malignant, shameful, contestable, offensive, near-illegal, hurtful, pandering, belittling, unfair, Madison Scouts private frickin issues on this or any other public forum.

I DO NOT CARE !!!!!!!

You people do this so flippantly, you don't even notice you are doing it any more! It is pathetic and sad! Your posts reads like these things you write about Sal, a real living person by the way, are just common every-day lighthearted communication of which you can toss around anytime. Do you think he is going to come on here and defend himself to hearsay or something? Maybe all of you know that he will not so it is somehow fun...you know...slam the guy over and over, wrongfully thinking you risk nothing.

LEAVE IT BE !!!!!!!

Try this on and see what ya' think.

YOU become corps director. Your passion for Scouts is evident and you put your self fully into their success. You make mistakes as we all would, maybe big mistakes. The board fires you. Maybe you miss spent money. Maybe the board didn't like the direction shows were going. Maybe they found you difficult to work with...what ever. OK, you are fired and for YEARS...yes I said YEARS, people (from that corps you poured your life into) come onto DCP (as you all have been doing) and say

"The problem with what _________ (insert your name here) did -- from what I understand from having read other people's assessments of what happened -- is that while it might have been forward-thinking from a creative standpoint, the expenses incurred nearly drove the corps into financial bankruptcy . . . which Madison has been paying off ever since."

These are your words. You are using them to keep the conjecture alive. Rather than your name in that blank, how about any one's name? It is not right.

Whose side of the story have you heard? What official documents have you seen? You use it to support your opinion, using it as truth. So why not just say it yourself rather than stating it is what others are writing? Have you spoken with Sal at length so he could give his side of the story? Many people saying it does not make it right or OK to repeat publicly.

Removing yourself by saying you are just repeating what others have written does not make you innocent of participating in continuing to stir this mire. What others have written? Do you mean here on DCP? On official affidavits?

Its called slander, and I am tired of reading it here. I am tired of what it is doing to people's perceptions of the Madison Scouts. Like it or not, all the people that come on here, or sit in the stands next to you guys and hear you talk about the radical, overtly negative, slam-your-own-corps'-past stuff about Scouts makes it harder for people to support or even care what happens to Scouts anymore. If you think the impressionable members of Scouts and other corps are not on here reading this crap, you are mistaken. It is self-destructive, whether the corps made finals or not, there is NO justification. This garbage is apparently still shared, floating around, discussed among the anti Sal people, part of your Scouts vernacular. These kinds of things fester, take hold tightly, and become a permanent part of the group with which you associate, meet, and promote. As soon as Sal's name gets worn out, you will all find somewhere else to place this negativity WITHIN YOUR GROUP. Fine. Just stop exposing me to it.

What? - You could just stop reading.... Might help you sleep ...

[trionbd]

In regards to your comments about Sal:

OK, I will start with apologies first. I do not mean to hurt your feelings nor single you out. I am sorry if I upset you. I am angry. I love the Madison Scouts and want them to fulfill their missions in every was possible ASAP, without hurting anyone, certainly not their members. Your posts are usually fairly benign and fair. Your passion for the activity and the Scouts is admirable. I seriously doubt that you are riddled with malice, BUT...

Please stop airing dirty, old, nobody-wants-to-hear-it-anymore, unproven, unprofessional, degrading, unhelpful, unsubstantiated, one-sided, shallow, low-hitting, pathetic, point-the-finger-somewhere-else, not-your-place, adolescent, alumni-fueled, slanderous, malignant, shameful, contestable, offensive, near-illegal, hurtful, pandering, belittling, unfair, Madison Scouts private frickin issues on this or any other public forum.

I DO NOT CARE !!!!!!!

You people do this so flippantly, you don't even notice you are doing it any more! It is pathetic and sad! Your posts reads like these things you write about Sal, a real living person by the way, are just common every-day lighthearted communication of which you can toss around anytime. Do you think he is going to come on here and defend himself to hearsay or something? Maybe all of you know that he will not so it is somehow fun...you know...slam the guy over and over, wrongfully thinking you risk nothing.

LEAVE IT BE !!!!!!!

Try this on and see what ya' think.

YOU become corps director. Your passion for Scouts is evident and you put your self fully into their success. You make mistakes as we all would, maybe big mistakes. The board fires you. Maybe you miss spent money. Maybe the board didn't like the direction shows were going. Maybe they found you difficult to work with...what ever. OK, you are fired and for YEARS...yes I said YEARS, people (from that corps you poured your life into) come onto DCP (as you all have been doing) and say

"The problem with what _________ (insert your name here) did -- from what I understand from having read other people's assessments of what happened -- is that while it might have been forward-thinking from a creative standpoint, the expenses incurred nearly drove the corps into financial bankruptcy . . . which Madison has been paying off ever since."

These are your words. You are using them to keep the conjecture alive. Rather than your name in that blank, how about any one's name? It is not right.

Whose side of the story have you heard? What official documents have you seen? You use it to support your opinion, using it as truth. So why not just say it yourself rather than stating it is what others are writing? Have you spoken with Sal at length so he could give his side of the story? Many people saying it does not make it right or OK to repeat publicly.

Removing yourself by saying you are just repeating what others have written does not make you innocent of participating in continuing to stir this mire. What others have written? Do you mean here on DCP? On official affidavits?

Its called slander, and I am tired of reading it here. I am tired of what it is doing to people's perceptions of the Madison Scouts. Like it or not, all the people that come on here, or sit in the stands next to you guys and hear you talk about the radical, overtly negative, slam-your-own-corps'-past stuff about Scouts makes it harder for people to support or even care what happens to Scouts anymore. If you think the impressionable members of Scouts and other corps are not on here reading this crap, you are mistaken. It is self-destructive, whether the corps made finals or not, there is NO justification. This garbage is apparently still shared, floating around, discussed among the anti Sal people, part of your Scouts vernacular. These kinds of things fester, take hold tightly, and become a permanent part of the group with which you associate, meet, and promote. As soon as Sal's name gets worn out, you will all find somewhere else to place this negativity WITHIN YOUR GROUP. Fine. Just stop exposing me to it.

Wow...congratulations! That was actually the most venemous thing I have ever read on DCP.

[salad315]

I love you last comment, it made me laugh out loud. I guess there could be such a thing as a "sexy mole" though.

As to your views of this year and last year, yeah I watched and yeah I was impressed: for about 2 minutes of the show. The drill you speak of was in the closer this pass year and while it was cool it was a flash in the pan to me, in an otherwise forgettable show. As for '07, I like bits and pieces of the show, but to me it tended to drag on in design and drill. I also believe the performance levels of the corps while good, were not Amazing! I believe they placed 2nd not only because they were a fine drum corps, but because Cavies went psycho and played Billy Joel and Phantom's '07 design left a bit to be desired. Did they deserve the placement? Sure, but it did not WOW me like other Cadets shows have. While yeah I may not care for narration, I thought the first Zone show was narratively controlled and the show itself was way creative and had all the elements I mentioned in my first post. '05 was impressive to me, the last 3 shows have not been IMO. I also think that at present they have relied on gimmics for their show instead of letting the members/performances do the talking. Hence this creates the "identity" crises I see for The Cadets. As for the last statement in your top paragraph, I could care o less what most the DCP group accepts as truth. That would be like saying that because we all like eggs, there is only one way to scramble them. Just as a presidential debate proves large groups of people agree, it also proves there are many that don't and that's why we have our own beliefs. Good conversing with you, I respect your answers.

Wes Perkins

BK '97 '98

Ok...and ok... Here's where you lose me. You say the shows since 05 have been less impressive to you. I happen to disagree about 07 for the most part, and aside from the narration, find it ######, but we can get past that. What about the other cadets shows of the 2000's then?? I mean, 2000 was great, and 01 had a good hornline with a decent (but comparatively easy drill, and the velocity and excitement just went down from there. You talk about gimmicks...02 was the most gimmicky, and 2003 seemed like a cry for love. 2004 was just I can hardly remember a single distinctive drill move from those years, and 05 wasnt that much more interesting. I mean yeah, this year wasnt exactly 98 or 97, or 93 cadets, but then again we havent seen those kinds of shows since...well, the 90's

[traveller30]

I could tell by the horns. Also, bd does basics without their horns anyway Other than that, i might still be able to tell....

Wow, that must be a case of mistaken identity and not necessarily lost identity.

[salad315]

Wow, that must be a case of mistaken identity and not necessarily lost identity.

Hmm??? I could be wrong. I know I've seen them do vis show warmup without horns, and heard that they dont use them sometimes in visual.

[traveller30]

Hmm??? I could be wrong. I know I've seen them do vis show warmup without horns, and heard that they dont use them sometimes in visual.

You are probably right. I don't know anymore....

[Mistress Kelli]

I guess there could be such a thing as a "sexy mole" though.

See Marilyn Monroe.