Matched Grip Revolution of the 1970s/80s

[pearlsnaredrummer77]

-Add Watkins Glen Squires mentioned in historical photos thread...

Matched Grip Snarelines (70s&80s)

Updated List

Santa Clara Vanguard

Royal Crusaders

27th Lancers

General Butler Vagabonds

Gaurdsmen

Santa Clara Vanguard B corps

Argonne Rebels

Madison Scouts

The Troopers

Bluecoats

Cavaliers

Dutch Boy

Empire Statesmen (DCA)

Steel City Ambassadors (DCA)

Kilties

Blue Devils (partial matched grip 1980)

Geneseo Knights

Rochester Crusaders (DCA)

Reading Buccaneers (DCA)

Avant Garde

Seattle Imperials

The Northmen

Blue Stars

Watkins Glen Squires

[Jim Nevermann]

Got any specs on those Seattle Imperial drums? Looks like a drumset snare with deep cut away toms. Toms look to be 8-10-12 with the 10 on the left and 12 on the right. Any details?

They were indeed drumset snares, but the toms were conventional, cut-in-half set toms. The resonators were matching color vinyl wrap-arounds mounted with snaps. Here's a relatively close-up, front pix... http://www.remo.com/forum/post/view?bid=7&...pg=12&age=0

This explanation from a former Imperial...

"We did it to save weight because we were carrying them around.

The snaps did work very well. I imagine you can still go to the fabric store and buy them. They are the heavy-duty ones that are nickel plated. They come in two halves. The male half and the female half. They also come with a cap that is used to secure them to the fabric. You place the male end on one side of the fabric and a cap on the other side and then you use a punch tool and a hammer to fasten them together.

We didn't use that approach. We experimented quite a bit and decided to put the male end on the drum shell secured with a small wood screw with a low-profile head so that it didn't extend above the rim of the male snap.

I believe the first step was to tape the resonator in place on the shell of the drum and drill pilot holes all the way around (except in the overlap). This makes sure that the snaps will line up around the circumference.

The female end was fastened to the resonator with an aluminum pop rivet and a washer. A snap rivet tool pulls the rivet and distorts one end cause it to grab. In our case the rivet was pulled from the inside of the resonator and the washer and the distorted end of the rivet was on the outside of the resonator. We would then grind down some of the excess rivet to make it less obvious.

Finally, the resonator did overlap a bit in the front. In this case male and female ends would have to be attached using the rivet rather than the screw. In this case the distorted end of the rivet was on the same side of the snap that the screw head was in the earlier paragraph (because you want the overlap to fit flush). That would then have to be ground down with a Dremel Mototool.

It sounds involved but once you practice a little bit you get the technique down."

BTW, I got this explanation from him because I thought to try it on my Remo 'Legero", very shallow-shell drum set toms. However, I'm still looking first for appropriate size Ludwig quarter-sphere projector scoops, like so many corps used in the mid to late '70s.

Edited February 21, 2009 by Jim Nevermann

[Piper]

I know that I'm probably "preaching to the choir" because most people reading this thread already know the historical reason for the traditional grip, but at the risk of being flamed I'll repeat it anyway. It was a military grip designed by drummers who lacked leg rests, levelers or harnesses. When they would sling the drum over the right shoulder their left leg would force the drum to tilt to the right. It's pretty hard to play matched grip that way, so they just flicked their left stick around. As I remember it, back in the 70's and 80's equipment allowed snares to be carried in a more level position, so some instructors thought that match grip would be a better fit. The problem was that most rudimental snare drummers at the time were trained on traditional grip, and had a hell of a time adjusting to it. We switched from traditional to match one year and I really struggled with it. It was like someone telling you to stop being right-handed and become left-handed. Oh man I HATED it, and I'm left-handed! I wouldn't wish that upon any rudimental snare drummer in the world - even if they were my enemy.

[esch]

I know that I'm probably "preaching to the choir" because most people reading this thread already know the historical reason for the traditional grip, but at the risk of being flamed I'll repeat it anyway. It was a military grip designed by drummers who lacked leg rests, levelers or harnesses. When they would sling the drum over the right shoulder their left leg would force the drum to tilt to the right. It's pretty hard to play matched grip that way, so they just flicked their left stick around. As I remember it, back in the 70's and 80's equipment allowed snares to be carried in a more level position, so some instructors thought that match grip would be a better fit. The problem was that most rudimental snare drummers at the time were trained on traditional grip, and had a hell of a time adjusting to it. We switched from traditional to match one year and I really struggled with it. It was like someone telling you to stop being right-handed and become left-handed. Oh man I HATED it, and I'm left-handed! I wouldn't wish that upon any rudimental snare drummer in the world - even if they were my enemy.

It was more than an equipment decision. At the time there were a number of studies showing that more muscles were used in the matched grip than traditional, which potentially meant greater control and endurance. Also, it was argued that other than for snare and some drumset use, the left hand grip of preference was matched and together with the growth of larger drumsets (with a lot of stuff on the left side) and rock styles, it was also a question of logic. It was quite a debate at the time: Bill Ludwig II used to tell a lot of stories about his father verbally attacking drummers who espoused playing matched (his father, of course, being one of the founders of the N.A.R.D. and a traditionalist 'till the end). I, myself, still feel matched is superior and start my drummers on it, but I play traditional almost exclusively. I don't like the look of it (ESPECIALLY on marching snare!!!) but the intellectual pressure towards the grip in the '70s and '80s, when the whole field was being revolutionized, was hard to fight.

[Jim Nevermann]

At the time there were a number of studies showing that more muscles were used in the matched grip than traditional...

In a very vague sort of way, I once thought so too. So, in the Medical Illustration & Photography curriculum I graduated from at the University of Illinois [Class of 1982], I researched and then presented my hypothesis about this topic in my Senior Project "Anatomical Comparisons Between Matched and Traditional Snare Drum Grip.".

I'll post its surprising conclusions here and in the other drumming websites soon.

Edited February 21, 2009 by Jim Nevermann

[esch]

cool, Jim. I'd be interested in hearing what you found.

[GregW]

For anyone who lived in the Pacific Northwest in the 70's, you certainly have to remember first, the Flamingos, and then from '75 forward, the Argonauts from Salem, Oregon. I saw them up close the first time in 75 when they came down to So Cal on their west coast tour, and met their famous instructor Ghost. He was a long time BAC tenor player who grew up under Gerry Shellmer during the heyday of Boston. Ghost lived part of the year when the weather wasn't too bad out in a teepee, the rest of the time in his studio filled with all kinds of percussion equipment, some regular, off the shelf stuff, some that he made himself. He was a huge fan of Harry Partch, and we would listen for hours to the different sounds and talk about the creative concepts that went into making that type of music. Some of the things he would have us do during the winter was to write our own duets that we would play with him. I was assigned woodblock and triangle for one, and washboard and cymbal for another. We also spent quite a bit of time working on the Tony Cirone piece "Four Four for Four" that we played (and won) the percussion ensemble competition that was part of the west coast standstill festival.

Mind you, I had grown up in the Kingsmen organization, so I was about as rigid as it comes when talking about drum corps drumming, but I loved what Ghost was doing, and after we folded in 75, I moved up to Oregon for a year to march, and learn from Ghost. He had talked about wanting to put a double snare on the field that year, and I assumed he meant something like the heavy Premier drums that had a strainer under the top head along with the regular one at the bottom. But no, he meant double snares, as in a 13" and a 15" Ludwig’s bolted together and played to take advantage of the unique tones. Our equipment manager Hadley created the mounting hardware to hold the drums together, and then created what was the original design of the snare harness. I understand Hadley went down to SCV and brought his harness design with him and even today's harnesses use the same basic design that he came up with in his dad's shop. All of his lines played matched grip from their inception, so I would suggest that there was no other corps that played match exclusively throughout its history. Even after he left in '77 and Alan Christiansen took over, the line was so entrenched at playing matched that it would have been foolish to try to switch them. Out of the 5 guys we had in the 1976 double snare line, 3 of them went on to SCV, one as the anchor for 2 years, another placed 2nd at individuals with the Freelancers, and I ended up moving back home to So Cal and teaching the VK for 3 more years. Quite a bit of talent in that little line.

The whole double-snare idea was an interesting concept, and Ghost wrote some interesting parts. The entire corps was basically an extension of his days with BAC, as we played The Coronation of Boris Godunov as our opener, Morton Gould's Jericho, and our entire out of concert piece and closer with The Rite of Spring. His drum solos were based on that piece already, so it was a natural for us to play the entire piece in a Boston style. Between his writing style and the double snares, we were one of the few lines that consistently scored 5.0's in PA throughout the year. The double snares themselves as I said were an interesting concept, but on the field it was hard to hear a huge tonal difference, we ended up breaking a lot of rims on the 13" drum because we tried to crank it so much to separate the tones. Finally around Whitewater we switched to Gretch rims that were a LOT heavier, and the parts finally started sounding the way he intended.

All in all an interesting year, and one I'm VERY glad to have experienced. As the very first import the Argos ever had, I was not always accepted, especially being from So Cal and going to Salem, OR, which at the time was still very much a small town where everyone knew one another, but all in all it was more about learning from Ghost, and playing in a very unique line. Here's a couple pictures of the snareline, I'm closest to the camera in the first one, and another shot of a portion of the line along with on of our North Drum tenors. We had 2 double tenors and 3 tri-toms, arranged high-middle-low rather than the high drum in the center, more like concert toms are mounted. Another Ghost vision. I also included one picture of the famous (or infamous) Ghost. If anyone knows his whereabouts, there are a lot of people that would like to catch up with him. We've heard he's somewhere back east and pops up at BAC rehearsals from time to time, so hopefully he's still with us and doing ok.

[pearlsnaredrummer77]

For anyone who lived in the Pacific Northwest in the 70's, you certainly have to remember first, the Flamingos, and then from '75 forward, the Argonauts from Salem, Oregon. I saw them up close the first time in 75 when they came down to So Cal on their west coast tour, and met their famous instructor Ghost. He was a long time BAC tenor player who grew up under Gerry Shellmer during the heyday of Boston. Ghost lived part of the year when the weather wasn't too bad out in a teepee, the rest of the time in his studio filled with all kinds of percussion equipment, some regular, off the shelf stuff, some that he made himself. He was a huge fan of Harry Partch, and we would listen for hours to the different sounds and talk about the creative concepts that went into making that type of music. Some of the things he would have us do during the winter was to write our own duets that we would play with him. I was assigned woodblock and triangle for one, and washboard and cymbal for another. We also spent quite a bit of time working on the Tony Cirone piece "Four Four for Four" that we played (and won) the percussion ensemble competition that was part of the west coast standstill festival.

Mind you, I had grown up in the Kingsmen organization, so I was about as rigid as it comes when talking about drum corps drumming, but I loved what Ghost was doing, and after we folded in 75, I moved up to Oregon for a year to march, and learn from Ghost. He had talked about wanting to put a double snare on the field that year, and I assumed he meant something like the heavy Premier drums that had a strainer under the top head along with the regular one at the bottom. But no, he meant double snares, as in a 13" and a 15" Ludwig’s bolted together and played to take advantage of the unique tones. Our equipment manager Hadley created the mounting hardware to hold the drums together, and then created what was the original design of the snare harness. I understand Hadley went down to SCV and brought his harness design with him and even today's harnesses use the same basic design that he came up with in his dad's shop. All of his lines played matched grip from their inception, so I would suggest that there was no other corps that played match exclusively throughout its history. Even after he left in '77 and Alan Christiansen took over, the line was so entrenched at playing matched that it would have been foolish to try to switch them. Out of the 5 guys we had in the 1976 double snare line, 3 of them went on to SCV, one as the anchor for 2 years, another placed 2nd at individuals with the Freelancers, and I ended up moving back home to So Cal and teaching the VK for 3 more years. Quite a bit of talent in that little line.

The whole double-snare idea was an interesting concept, and Ghost wrote some interesting parts. The entire corps was basically an extension of his days with BAC, as we played The Coronation of Boris Godunov as our opener, Morton Gould's Jericho, and our entire out of concert piece and closer with The Rite of Spring. His drum solos were based on that piece already, so it was a natural for us to play the entire piece in a Boston style. Between his writing style and the double snares, we were one of the few lines that consistently scored 5.0's in PA throughout the year. The double snares themselves as I said were an interesting concept, but on the field it was hard to hear a huge tonal difference, we ended up breaking a lot of rims on the 13" drum because we tried to crank it so much to separate the tones. Finally around Whitewater we switched to Gretch rims that were a LOT heavier, and the parts finally started sounding the way he intended.

All in all an interesting year, and one I'm VERY glad to have experienced. As the very first import the Argos ever had, I was not always accepted, especially being from So Cal and going to Salem, OR, which at the time was still very much a small town where everyone knew one another, but all in all it was more about learning from Ghost, and playing in a very unique line. Here's a couple pictures of the snareline, I'm closest to the camera in the first one, and another shot of a portion of the line along with on of our North Drum tenors. We had 2 double tenors and 3 tri-toms, arranged high-middle-low rather than the high drum in the center, more like concert toms are mounted. Another Ghost vision. I also included one picture of the famous (or infamous) Ghost. If anyone knows his whereabouts, there are a lot of people that would like to catch up with him. We've heard he's somewhere back east and pops up at BAC rehearsals from time to time, so hopefully he's still with us and doing ok.

Fascinating stuff Greg! There was a lot more actual experimentation it seems like in those days. I remember a stick team in W. PA (early 80s) taught by Dave Lorenzi that used a hi/low tenor set-up. Two sets of quads were small and high pitched and another was larger and tuned lower. They played 'talking' parts. Your post reminded of that. BTW. Where were the Flamingos located-so I can add them to the list?

[GregW]

Fascinating stuff Greg! There was a lot more actual experimentation it seems like in those days. I remember a stick team in W. PA (early 80s) taught by Dave Lorenzi that used a hi/low tenor set-up. Two sets of quads were small and high pitched and another was larger and tuned lower. They played 'talking' parts. Your post reminded of that. BTW. Where were the Flamingos located-so I can add them to the list?

Thanks, and yes, that's what attracted me to Ghost. You have to realize that I had just spent the worst year of my drum corps life, watching the corps I grew up in fold, after placing 3rd the previous year. Tom Float and Al Murray were my roommates in '75, so I went from a very structured drum corps mindset to this very free thinking guy in a teepee. He was very proud of the fact that he hadn't cut his hair or shaved since 1966. There's a very famous story that during one of the DCI Winter conferences, Ghost was there talking to many of the heavyweight drum judges, and most of them knew, or had heard about this strange guy with the strange line. When asked what type of sound he was trying to achieve, he put his hands and fingers in the air and said " something in between bubbles and stars". Needless to say they didn't quite know what to make of this guy :)

I don't remember for sure, but I think the first year of the Flamingos from Salem, OR was either 71 or 72. They got so much flack for being called the Flamingos and wearing pink satins, in 75 they changed the name to the Argonauts and went to the hideous orange cadet with two blue strips across the front. Better than pink flamingos, yes, but still a very strange look. That's what I meant about the corps playing matched for the entire life of the corps. They folded after 78 and came back as a youth band, so I would be hard pressed to think of another corps that NEVER played traditional grip, and certainly one of the first to play matched starting in 71.

Edited February 24, 2009 by GregW

[Jim Nevermann]

I remember the Argonaut's double North tenor, and talking with Ghost in the mid '70s, probably at one of the Salem winter contests. Quirky but interesting guy. I knew he marched in BAC back in the day, but your article really fleshed it out. Many thanks.

I always liked the corps' name and uniform change --including the distinctive, sort of burnt-orange color jackets-- from the first time I saw the [significantly larger, more aggressive themed] Argonauts at their Salem 'Optirama' debut. And as a nascent graphic designer then, their rams head logo completed the whole new-look & sound package for me.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Jim Nevermann