"B flat" instruments

[brassomaniac]

I've never heard of that reason, lol. "C is played OPEN. PERIOD."

Once and for all: Bass Clef Tuba parts are in C. The note written is the note sounded. If someone has made a custom part to solve a personal problem, that's cool! But you'll never see a commerically available piece for band or orchestra with bass clef transposed tuba parts!

Sure enough, I *have* seen situations where Music Majors who play on CC Tuba in college, and then show up to camp (where BBb tubas are the only option), have a slight learning curve for the Bb fingerings! ("oops, Bb is open...not C anymore!) That lasts about 5 minutes. After all, they played on BBb tubas their entire lives before majoring in Tuba! They have to learn different fingerings for F Tuba and Eb Tuba too! (or learn to sight-transpose, like horn and trp players) It comes with the territory.

Even if a composer specifies "F Tuba" (as I have done), the part and score will be in Bass Clef C.

Yes, I understand how a trained tubist reads, and that you always arrange for them in Concert pitch, regardless of the instrument. But, I'm referring to arrangements done for drum corps.

Players who have only played contra, in drum corps, have been taught the same fingerings as everyone else, when everything was keyed in G. I'm not talking about trained Tuba players, here.

And so, to play a Bb Tuba, with Concert parts, such a player would have to learn the Bb Tuba fingerings, OR you have to transpose a part for him, so he can use the ones he's familiar with, from drum corps.

I don't have such a player now, but , I've had a couple of them, for a time.... so I just started keeping a Bb, transposed tuba part for everything.

If I recall correctly, with G lines, the contras did not read parts that were written in Concert. They had a transposed part (for G bugle), like everyone else.

I'm really curious about how corps' handle this now, since the conversion to Bb..... Are corps' insisting that their Tuba players learn the real Bb fingerings, and to read in Concert?

Or, is everyone just blessed with trained players now, who can all adjust to the Bb fingerings easily? I know that the couple of guys we had would have had a lot of trouble with it.

FYI: I'm just a hack arranger and player, and long removed (and thus very rusty) from only 2 years of music school. So, I don't pretend to be any kind of authority on any of this. Just trying to make my way thru my own little music world, and the curves you can run thru when trying to combine players of wide experience levels.

Edited June 3, 2009 by brassomaniac

[Martybucs]

Why not just use CC tubas for everything, then the fingerings would always be the same. Is there that much difference in the sound?

I did a couple of concerts with a tuba player named, Jay Crush of the Chestnut Brass Company and he played on this little Eb tuba - sounded great. We did a premier of his tuba concerto - it was good, but a touch too Atonal for me.

The only reason I have a C trumpet is so I don't have to bother transposing and different fingerings. Now, that is exactly because I'm not a "trained" player and playing trumpet isn't my job - just for fun.

[Bruckner8]

Yes, I understand how a trained tubist reads, and that you always arrange for them in Concert pitch, regardless of the instrument. But, I'm referring to arrangements done for drum corps.

I guess that's my point: drum corps IS marching band for this purpose. Once the Bb switch happened, I never saw one treble-clef tuba part anymore. To my earlier point, if treble parts exist today, they're merely for legacy purposes (a soprano player who learned contra using treble clef fingerings).

Even now, all bari and euph parts are in bass clef (like band), but a random treble clef part shows up every now and then (just like band), cuz you have that kid who switched from trpt to bari in sixth grade, and the director never made the kid learn bass clef.

There are stories of kids switching from trpt, clarinet, flute, sax, etc...to TUBA. THOSE KIDS LEARNED BASS CLEF.

If you have drum corps-only musician (never played in school band; lots like that BITD), who started on Bb Trumpet, and has switched to Tuba because there was a need, the horn arranger will probably make a transposing treble clef part for that one kid. I guarantee you that not one single arranger thinks about that today, unless asked to for a special case.

BITD, 95% of the Contra parts were in treble clef, along with the rest of the hornline, ala brass band. I've seen some old school contra parts in transposing bass clef, but it was rare. Even a corps as young as the Glassmen in the early 90s played from all-treble clef books. The idea being any kid would learn the fingerrgins once, and then could be placed on any instrument very quickly.

Bottom line: standard tuba parts are in Bass Clef C. Brass Band (Eb and Bb Bass), and G Bugle Drum Corps (G Contrabass) use(d) all treble clef transposing. There are exceptions, and DCP posters love to post about them. I'll bet there's a kid somewhere who only played viola in his life, and showed up to some drum corps dying to play tuba...so the arranger made a special transposing alto-clef part! Cute story, but only an exception, not a rule.

When the switch happened from G to Bb (multi), an entire paradigm shift was made, almost overnight. We went from Brass Band history to American Concert and Marching Band history.

[Bruckner8]

Why not just use CC tubas for everything, then the fingerings would always be the same. Is there that much difference in the sound?

I did a couple of concerts with a tuba player named, Jay Crush of the Chestnut Brass Company and he played on this little Eb tuba - sounded great. We did a premier of his tuba concerto - it was good, but a touch too Atonal for me.

The only reason I have a C trumpet is so I don't have to bother transposing and different fingerings. Now, that is exactly because I'm not a "trained" player and playing trumpet isn't my job - just for fun.

RIght...that's the whole point. When you see a trumpet part in C, you pull out the C trumpet (playing from hymnal in church, ex), so you don't have to use diff fingerings (er, transpose) on your Bb trumpet.

Wouldn't it be nice if EVERYTHING was in C? (or Bb for that matter....makes no diff, just pick one as a standard!) Tuba players don't have that problem. They know their parts are always in C. All they have to do is decide which tuba they'd like to standardize on, and learn those fingerings. If they play C tuba all the time, no biggie...all Cs are open, and Bbs are 1st valve. If a player chooses a Bb tuba, Bb is open and Ab is 1st valve...C is 13 (or 4th valve). THE PART NEVER CHANGES, BUT THE TUBA KEY MIGHT! It's up to the player to either transpose or learn new fingerings.

[G_Bass]

Whoa.. first post in a long while...

Yeah, triple horns exist. I know of at least 2 horn players that have them (and both are from Houston Baptist University). I "hear" some pros play on them.

I still like a K-90.

[brassomaniac]

I guess that's my point: drum corps IS marching band for this purpose. Once the Bb switch happened, I never saw one treble-clef tuba part anymore. To my earlier point, if treble parts exist today, they're merely for legacy purposes (a soprano player who learned contra using treble clef fingerings).

Even now, all bari and euph parts are in bass clef (like band), but a random treble clef part shows up every now and then (just like band), cuz you have that kid who switched from trpt to bari in sixth grade, and the director never made the kid learn bass clef.

There are stories of kids switching from trpt, clarinet, flute, sax, etc...to TUBA. THOSE KIDS LEARNED BASS CLEF.

If you have drum corps-only musician (never played in school band; lots like that BITD), who started on Bb Trumpet, and has switched to Tuba because there was a need, the horn arranger will probably make a transposing treble clef part for that one kid. I guarantee you that not one single arranger thinks about that today, unless asked to for a special case.

BITD, 95% of the Contra parts were in treble clef, along with the rest of the hornline, ala brass band. I've seen some old school contra parts in transposing bass clef, but it was rare. Even a corps as young as the Glassmen in the early 90s played from all-treble clef books. The idea being any kid would learn the fingerrgins once, and then could be placed on any instrument very quickly.

Bottom line: standard tuba parts are in Bass Clef C. Brass Band (Eb and Bb Bass), and G Bugle Drum Corps (G Contrabass) use(d) all treble clef transposing. There are exceptions, and DCP posters love to post about them. I'll bet there's a kid somewhere who only played viola in his life, and showed up to some drum corps dying to play tuba...so the arranger made a special transposing alto-clef part! Cute story, but only an exception, not a rule.

When the switch happened from G to Bb (multi), an entire paradigm shift was made, almost overnight. We went from Brass Band history to American Concert and Marching Band history.

Very much appreciated. Thanks for getting me updated!

Is was out of dc when the rule change happened. And until now, I had not considered how it was affecting contra/tuba players caught in the change.

Now that you mention it, I had also forgotten that G contra parts were in treble, NOT bass clef.

I've been bending over backwards trying to fit "G" alumni guys in with legit players, and the Tuba parts were only the tip of the ice-berg! Guess this is another remnent of that I'll toss out.

Edited June 3, 2009 by brassomaniac

[Martybucs]

RIght...that's the whole point. When you see a trumpet part in C, you pull out the C trumpet (playing from hymnal in church, ex), so you don't have to use diff fingerings (er, transpose) on your Bb trumpet.

Wouldn't it be nice if EVERYTHING was in C? (or Bb for that matter....makes no diff, just pick one as a standard!) Tuba players don't have that problem. They know their parts are always in C. All they have to do is decide which tuba they'd like to standardize on, and learn those fingerings. If they play C tuba all the time, no biggie...all Cs are open, and Bbs are 1st valve. If a player chooses a Bb tuba, Bb is open and Ab is 1st valve...C is 13 (or 4th valve). THE PART NEVER CHANGES, BUT THE TUBA KEY MIGHT! It's up to the player to either transpose or learn new fingerings.

...and that's different than a trumpet...how?

One could learn the C fingerings on a Bb trumpet as well to play C music. It's the same problem for both, only one is with the key of the music and one is with the key of the instrument.

[Dave]

Why not just use CC tubas for everything, then the fingerings would always be the same. Is there that much difference in the sound?

I did a couple of concerts with a tuba player named, Jay Crush of the Chestnut Brass Company and he played on this little Eb tuba - sounded great. We did a premier of his tuba concerto - it was good, but a touch too Atonal for me.

The only reason I have a C trumpet is so I don't have to bother transposing and different fingerings. Now, that is exactly because I'm not a "trained" player and playing trumpet isn't my job - just for fun.

It's an issue of what timbre is appropriate, as well as the range. CC tubas are the preferred sound for American orchestras and (by extension, since most college training is focused around orchestral studies) professional and collegiate level bands in the United States. Most music is written in that range. For small ensembles, most tubists will choose an F tuba because the range is usually wider and requires more versatility; many tuba players find a CC tuba to be too "heavy" for quintet work. Not me, but some. In Germany, BBb tuba is the horn of choice for orchestral playing; I don't know the whole philosophy behind it, but it does provide a little different quality to what they're doing. Is there that much difference in the sound? Most pros would say yes, and I'm inclined to agree, but it's also because of how suited a particular key horn is to the part in front of you. I might play a certain part written for F tuba on Eb, just because it lays better on that horn than on the F.

[SkyDog]

I'll bet there's a kid somewhere who only played viola in his life, and showed up to some drum corps dying to play tuba...so the arranger made a special transposing alto-clef part! Cute story, but only an exception, not a rule.

I had that kid, except it was a marimba part I needed to rewrite in alto clef.

(And as a percussion guy who occasionally needs to work on wind arrangements, this thread has been a great read. I've learned a lot of useful stuff. Thanks!)

[brassomaniac]

...and that's different than a trumpet...how?

One could learn the C fingerings on a Bb trumpet as well to play C music. It's the same problem for both, only one is with the key of the music and one is with the key of the instrument.

Music Professionals , please tweak this (or correct), but this is my own simple answer:

Trumpet players are trained to deal with this issue in a totally different (basically oppostite) way then tuba players are.

Rather than work from a different "open" fundimental for each different keyed instrument (like the tuba does), and then change the fingerings, we learn to play on the Bb trumpet (most, anyway) and to transpose, on sight, music written out for trumpets of other keys (or even for parts written for other instruments). It takes some practice to transpose for the various keys (I haven't done this in many years and the skill definately atrophies). But , by practice, we learn to transpose by the appropriate interval, as we read for each key.

Owning a C trumpet just eliminates the need for that skill, when encountering parts written in Concert pitch.

I do know people who like to play the C trumpet, and have seen them transpose the more common (in pop music, that is) Bb parts. Not sure this could be very common, tho.

Edited June 3, 2009 by brassomaniac