"B flat" instruments

[Bruckner8]

...and that's different than a trumpet...how?

One could learn the C fingerings on a Bb trumpet as well to play C music. It's the same problem for both, only one is with the key of the music and one is with the key of the instrument.

The only difference is: ALL BASS CLEFT TUBA PARTS ARE IN C. So when you say "the same prob exists for both" my answer is "Not quite, since tuba players never have to care about the key of the PART, whilst trumpeters do!"

To wit: Pick a trumpet. OK, I want to play on Trumpet in A the rest of my life. I show up to my first gig, and it's Bruckner's 8th Symphony. Darn, the part is in F. So, when I see middle C, I can't finger it OPEN anymore (like I do when I play Arban's all day...) OK, so I need written C to sound like concert F...what to do...well, concert F is major third below my instrument, and since Ab is maj 3rd below C, then I need to finger it 23V. I go to the next gig...it's Alpine Symphony...hmm, parts for C, Bb and F in the same book....but I have this Trumpet in A in my hand. Bummer. OK, Finally, the next gig is Tchaikovsky's 5th symphony...woot! The part is in A already! Whew, now I can use those natural fingerings!

Pick a Tuba. OK, I want to play Eb tuba the rest of my life. I go to ANY GIG (except Brass Band), and whoa! The part is ALWAYS IN BASS CLEF C. Good thing it doesn't matter, since I always learned that written C is fingered 12V on my Eb tuba. If I decide to switch tubas, then YUP...new fingerings. But at least I don't have to worry about the PART.

PS: thanks for that tidbit about Galileo and Organ Pipes...I never knew that!

[Martybucs]

[snip]

I do know people who like to play the C trumpet, and have seen them transpose the more common (in pop music, that is) Bb parts. Not sure this could be very common, tho.

I have one friend that prefers to play C trumpet. He says it agrees with his ear more. He is quite adept at transposing music written for Bb trumpet.

[Bruckner8]

Trumpet players are trained to deal with this issue in a totally different (basically oppostite) way then tuba players are.

Exactly right, since tuba players don't have to care about the key of the part. To MartyBuc's point however, now that I think about it again, the PROCESS of a player choosing to "transpose" or "learn new fingerings" is equivalent.

When you think about the combination of part keys and horn keys, tubas have 4 combinations, since the part is always in C. With trumpets, there are 144 combinations, assuming a part and horn has been built in every chromatic key! By having the luxury of the part in C, tuba players have it much easier. And the process is the same.

[Martybucs]

The only difference is: ALL BASS CLEFT TUBA PARTS ARE IN C. So when you say "the same prob exists for both" my answer is "Not quite, since tuba players never have to care about the key of the PART, whilst trumpeters do!"

To wit: Pick a trumpet. OK, I want to play on Trumpet in A the rest of my life. I show up to my first gig, and it's Bruckner's 8th Symphony. Darn, the part is in F. So, when I see middle C, I can't finger it OPEN anymore (like I do when I play Arban's all day...) OK, so I need written C to sound like concert F...what to do...well, concert F is major third below my instrument, and since Ab is maj 3rd below C, then I need to finger it 23V. I go to the next gig...it's Alpine Symphony...hmm, parts for C, Bb and F in the same book....but I have this Trumpet in A in my hand. Bummer. OK, Finally, the next gig is Tchaikovsky's 5th symphony...woot! The part is in A already! Whew, now I can use those natural fingerings!

Pick a Tuba. OK, I want to play Eb tuba the rest of my life. I go to ANY GIG (except Brass Band), and whoa! The part is ALWAYS IN BASS CLEF C. Good thing it doesn't matter, since I always learned that written C is fingered 12V on my Eb tuba. If I decide to switch tubas, then YUP...new fingerings. But at least I don't have to worry about the PART.

PS: thanks for that tidbit about Galileo and Organ Pipes...I never knew that!

Wow, I've never come across anything that complicated. Usually, just the difference between trumpet music in Bb and concert pitch.

[brassomaniac]

I have one friend that prefers to play C trumpet. He says it agrees with his ear more. He is quite adept at transposing music written for Bb trumpet.

Then I guess we know at least 3 people who start from a different perspective then Bb. Maybe it's more common than I think. I'm not very often around legit music and ensembles.

But the skill is the same: transposing music written out for a different instrument, to adapt for the one in your hands, at the time. Opposite from what a Tuba player does; adapting the fundimental starting pitch, of various tubas he might play, for music written out in Concert.

Edited June 3, 2009 by brassomaniac

[Martybucs]

PS: thanks for that tidbit about Galileo and Organ Pipes...I never knew that!

At the Franklin Institute in Phila., PA There is an exhibit of Galileo with "all things Galileo". One of the items is a shopping list of items to make telescopes - various materials to ground his lenses and glues and two 8 feet long organ pipes from an organ maker.

I guess it should be relevant - I think the pipes were concert C.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Martybucs

[Dave]

The only difference is: ALL BASS CLEFT TUBA PARTS ARE IN C.

Well, they're all in concert pitch. Same difference, really, but just for the sake of clarity.

[G-horns]

Sort of a summary reply to a very interesting thread...

I us a Bb trumpet on everything because I have one. I do quite a bit of sight transposition because I'm too lazy to write out a transposed melody. I would love to have a C trumpet, not because of the transposition but because if a C trumpet part is provided it should be played on a C trumpet - due to the difference in timbre. Sometimes the music needs to be transposed from a transposition (keyboard player uses the transpose buttons). In that case I just ask "What key is it in and what note does it start on?" - and I go from there.

G Contrabass written treble clef vs. bass clef: Virtually all of Hy Dreitzer's contra parts were written in transposed bass clef.

I agree with whomever wrote that it would be a lot easier if everything was written in concert key with no transpositions. Let the instrumentalists adapt by figuring out what buttons to push, slides to pull, holes to cover, strings to play, etc.

[brassomaniac]

Sort of a summary reply to a very interesting thread...

I us a Bb trumpet on everything because I have one. I do quite a bit of sight transposition because I'm too lazy to write out a transposed melody. I would love to have a C trumpet, not because of the transposition but because if a C trumpet part is provided it should be played on a C trumpet - due to the difference in timbre. Sometimes the music needs to be transposed from a transposition (keyboard player uses the transpose buttons). In that case I just ask "What key is it in and what note does it start on?" - and I go from there.

This is a great skill to have. My son, Paul, is also very adept at this. He plays by ear, quite a lot. That, and USING (thereby, practicing) your transposing skills, are what you need to do, in order to develop and keep these skills.

I, myself, was never strong at transposing. And now that I've applied it so infrequently, for so long...., I really suck at it.

Edited June 4, 2009 by brassomaniac

[Martybucs]

I have a Yamaha Bb trumpet and Yamaha C trumpet and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference in timbre. Most people, if not all, would not be able to tell which horn a part was played on, given the choice of Bb or C.

Now, G/D, Eb/D, they really sound different. Not to mention Bb/A piccolo trumpet.

The Bb usually has better playing characteristics than a C trumpet, especially in the lower register.