Head tilting

[korsakovisjesus3]

The thread is about head tilt, not tone quality. Personally I think all upstream players have a pretty bright tone. Relatively.

Actually you have to play that way on trombone. It puts the slide in alignment with your arms natural movements. Not to mention 9' horn and only 2' until you peg the clarinet player in the booty. Not always related to overbite or downstream playing. Someone did a study somewhere that showed that the difference between pro trombonists and not was a matter of that angle adjustment. The pros had more of it. With the right shoulder thrusted slightly forward to extend the reach of your slide arm. Needless to say this doesn't fly in marching band too well. And not yet in drumcorps either. Although with the current economy, it's only a matter of time until DC? realizes that trombones are cheap and bountiful. Outfit an entire hornline at 1/10th the current costs. (and no excuses for intonation problems)

1) Thank you so very much for stating this obvious, Shadow_7. What would be the point of adjusting your neck/head alignment if it affects tone quality? That is the reason I mentioned it, I would much prefer a player who has good tone quality but a crooked posture than a person with ###### tone quality but perfect neck/head posture.

BTW, bright tone is always less preferable to dark tone...it's what sets apart the bad players from the experienced.

2) Actually, you don't have to play that way on trombone... your "arm's natural movements" is not affected by the angle at which you hold your horn, only your natural shoulder movements are affected by the angle you hold your horn. That is why you tilt the horn down even further than you normally would to reach 7th and flat 7th positions because you have to roll the shoulder forwards to reach those positions.

3) They're never going to switch to trombones. Why in the hell would they sacrifice intense drill and they type of drill they can do just to save money. Also, trombone's don't blend as well as baritones, despite the fact that they can kick tons more power. Let it go tex.

[Shadow_7]

1) Thank you so very much for stating this obvious, Shadow_7. What would be the point of adjusting your neck/head alignment if it affects tone quality? That is the reason I mentioned it, I would much prefer a player who has good tone quality but a crooked posture than a person with ###### tone quality but perfect neck/head posture.

BTW, bright tone is always less preferable to dark tone...it's what sets apart the bad players from the experienced.

Not always. Sometimes you want a bright tone. Soloist. If you blend it's not much of a solo. Oh that's pretty, who's playing it, where's that coming from?

2) Actually, you don't have to play that way on trombone... your "arm's natural movements" is not affected by the angle at which you hold your horn, only your natural shoulder movements are affected by the angle you hold your horn. That is why you tilt the horn down even further than you normally would to reach 7th and flat 7th positions because you have to roll the shoulder forwards to reach those positions.

Actually you do. The last thing you want in a studio environmnet is to constantly be changing your orientation to the microphone and room. It doesn't record too well. But then again they make mics that clip on the horn now. Although a lot of the higher end mics don't.

3) They're never going to switch to trombones. Why in the hell would they sacrifice intense drill and they type of drill they can do just to save money. Also, trombone's don't blend as well as baritones, despite the fact that they can kick tons more power. Let it go tex.

Never say never. I would have never though of SYNTHs or GUITARS to be status quo for DCI, but now..... The genie is out, trombones are just a matter of time. I'm sure they'll justify it somehow. Woodwinds because they're typically female and more females make recruitment easier.... yada yada yada.... Not that trombones are all that marchable. But when doing mostly standstills trombones are a lot more interesting to look at than a valved horn. Assuming that they play something more than whole notes. We switched to Bb's because of the money, so why not trombones. It's only a matter of time now.

[korsakovisjesus3]

Not always. Sometimes you want a bright tone. Soloist. If you blend it's not much of a solo. Oh that's pretty, who's playing it, where's that coming from?

I think you're confusing "dark tone" with "blending". To clarify and define my terminology, when I say dark, I mean resonant, rich, a full sound, characteristic to the instrument's intended sound.

When I say "bright" I mean immature, uncharacteristic sound of that particular instrument, has a laser-like quality to the sound, is not full, and not particularly pleasant to listen to.

I'm not saying this is true with all players who use upstream, but all the low brass, especially trombone players I have heard sound terrible, and not in terms of "bright" or "dark" - but very closed off sounds. The physics of it are just wrong in most cases. By having an upstream embouchure, you are cutting off the vibration to the upper lip rather than keeping it open like you do in a downstream embouchure. Why is this important? Because your upper lip is the PRIMARY vibrating lip of the embouchure, definitely not the bottom lip. The upper lip's vibration defines the tone quality. This is why as a general rule, the only people who use upstream and sound good are those who either have an underbite OR those who naturally find it comfortable to jut your lower jaw out of its natural position. With the lower jaw out in these cases, it causes the upper lip to be free to vibrate.

Actually you do. The last thing you want in a studio environmnet is to constantly be changing your orientation to the microphone and room. It doesn't record too well. But then again they make mics that clip on the horn now. Although a lot of the higher end mics don't.

What are you talking about, lol? This has nothing to do with anything we're discussing. If I understand what you're saying, you are trying to say it is bad to move your bell around when you record?

Have you ever seen a professional trombonist perform a recital or do a recording session? Joseph Alessi, arguably the best solo and orchestral trombonist, has created numerous CD's. Have you seen him perform live? He doesn't stand stock still during his recitals (even his recorded ones which all of his recitals usually are recorded). It's very hard to find any musician who stands stock-still anytime they play because most find it assists them with the musicality aspect of playing. Have you ever been to a trombone recording session, or even any brass player's recording session? One set of microphones is usually 10-12 feet away from the brass player, then a second set in the middle, and a third set towards the back, if they want to get fancy. Sometimes just the one microphone 10-12 feet back is enough, especially in smaller halls or recording areas. Needless to say, the hall or recording area is filled up and does not detect those movements of the bell. You would have to literally move your bell 45 degrees or more away and then back again for it to pick up that you moved your bell...even then if it does happen by CHANCE to pick it up, the technology we have today can easily edit that out.

Never say never. I would have never though of SYNTHs or GUITARS to be status quo for DCI, but now..... The genie is out, trombones are just a matter of time. I'm sure they'll justify it somehow. Woodwinds because they're typically female and more females make recruitment easier.... yada yada yada.... Not that trombones are all that marchable. But when doing mostly standstills trombones are a lot more interesting to look at than a valved horn. Assuming that they play something more than whole notes. We switched to Bb's because of the money, so why not trombones. It's only a matter of time now.

I'll eat my trombone the day the allow trombones in. Believe me, I think that would be kind of cool if they did, but none are going to sacrifice drill to do that. Visually it would just look god awful. You don't hold trombones the way you do baris, euphs, and trumpets...they just look sloppy.

If it happens, please PM me. I promise within 24 hours of your PM, I will post a streaming live video of me eating my trombone and I will be sure to send you the link as well as upload it to youtube for everyone to see.

Thanks.

[Dave]

Actually you do. The last thing you want in a studio environmnet is to constantly be changing your orientation to the microphone and room. It doesn't record too well. But then again they make mics that clip on the horn now. Although a lot of the higher end mics don't.

Studios use omnidirectional compressor mics that can pick up pretty much anything around them. You're not using some cheapo 57 that loses your sound if you back up six inches too far.

[Shadow_7]

Studios use omnidirectional compressor mics that can pick up pretty much anything around them. You're not using some cheapo 57 that loses your sound if you back up six inches too far.

Actually ribbon mics generally sound best on brasses. Figure 8 pattern, not OMNI. Baring that dynamic mics are commonly used on backing tracks. Cardioid / unidirectional / rear and side rejection of sound. In either case if you have to change the angle of your horn to reach 7th, you're not going to be able to play anything FAST without your playing or horn being adversely affected. Talking about trombones of course. And I've known a few drumcorps to use trombones when baritone horns or players were not available. So I doubt I'd ever offer to eat one. They've already used them at least temporarily. They just can't compete at a judged show with them yet.

[sliphornchic]

Studios use omnidirectional compressor mics that can pick up pretty much anything around them. You're not using some cheapo 57 that loses your sound if you back up six inches too far.

Good point. That would suck if you couldn't move at all when you record haha!

[sliphornchic]

In either case if you have to change the angle of your horn to reach 7th, you're not going to be able to play anything FAST without your playing or horn being adversely affected.

That's funny, I've seen so many trombone recitals (being in college of course with a studio of 35), and all of the trombonists I've seen have to "tilt" their horn down to get their shoulder forward enough to reach 7th, especially b7 for reaching C2 (the Low C right above Pedal Bb). The only people that I've seen that don't have to do it are usually 6 feet or taller so they have really long arms in proportion to their body. The only other people that don't have to tilt slightly are ones with disproportionate long arms. But the ones who are shorter people thus shorter arms, tilting the horn down to reach 7th and b7th positions doesn't seem to stop them from playing very fast pieces... I guess they've just practiced it a lot and that no longer hinders them haha. It's funny how practicing can help you eh?

This is a little off topic but still has to do with "tilting" - I've noticed that when people play pedal tones, they tend to tilt the horn up to play with their slide to close parallel with flat ground. After watching several trombone recitals with people doing this, especially bass trombone players, I tried it myself and I realized how much easier it is to focus your embouchure that way. I'm not sure why it's easier to play pedals that way..but it just works...I can play so controlled with pedals now ever since I starting messing around with the tilt about a year ago. It also sounds like this "tilting" would slow you down when you jump from mid or high-register to low pedal tones...but its actually smoothed it out for me too...I have no issue doing fast lipslurs from mid to low register now I guess because it's not an embouchure change, just an angle change.

**Edit: I don't mean that I play with my slide parallel to the ground in all registers, just pedal. In mid and upper registers my horn is generally tilted down to match my natural-slight-overbite, kind of like what Korsakov was mentioning. BTW Korsakov, who told you about that "the upper lip is the primary vibrating lip"? I vaguely remember hearing something about that, but I don't remember where I read it. Where did you read that, or did someone tell you that?

Edited August 11, 2009 by sliphornchic

[iSpazz]

same thing happened to me. fixed it tilting so far back (it still tilts back slightly, but thats normal), not it tilts slightly back and alightly to the left: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?page=1&a...&id=5034994

Edited August 12, 2009 by iSpazz