Purchase a G line or Bb line?

[709]

Sorry - I was talking about intonation. Using the word "blending" threw you off track.

To rephrase, my point was that when you mix F middle horns with other voices in Bb, the tuning tendencies sometimes clash. A note that tends to be sharp on a Bb horn (i.e. G) may tend to be flat on an F mello, and it takes additional effort for different sections to match intonation on such pitches. An all-G hornline starts out better matched in that respect.

Sounds like a problem in voice leading for the arranger to me, not an argument for either key.

[Cache_Money]

As far as DCI goes, I can attest that a G line would likely be punished because they're on G's. That's based on what I heard from a corps that was scoring quite low in brass numbers for most of the season whose staff was told point-blank by judges at a show that they would continue to get that low score until they switched Bb's.

If you're saying that a brass line that sounded just as good as other lines was punished solely because they used G horns, I call bull****.

What the judge probably said was that the line has some serious tone quality issues that will probably remain so long as they stick with Gs.

[mchromik]

Sorry - I was talking about intonation. Using the word "blending" threw you off track.

To rephrase, my point was that when you mix F middle horns with other voices in Bb, the tuning tendencies sometimes clash. A note that tends to be sharp on a Bb horn (i.e. G) may tend to be flat on an F mello, and it takes additional effort for different sections to match intonation on such pitches. An all-G hornline starts out better matched in that respect.

Okay, I see what you are saying. I think there would be some debate here as to any such advantage being negated by the more idiosyncratic tuning of the G horns. Personally I think there is little if any tuning differences between the two keys. There are shakey notes on every horn design ever, and in any key. The concert pitch horns seem a little more forgiving for whatever reason. Maybe it is additional mass or quality of construction. Maybe the G horns edge makes tuning differences more apparent. For whatever reason tuning does seem a bit less of an issue with the concert pitch horns. In my minicorps this past season, I never had to move the slide of my Yama204 F mello once, the entire season until after I cleaned the horn completely polishing away the mark on the slide where it had be set all year. Granted we are seasoned players who blow through the center of the horn, know the idiosyncratic notes on our horns, and have been taught to listen down in all situations.

Personally I think the debate should be about perceived quality of tone rather then tuning, though they are related. And how the benchmark of this has moved markedly in the past two decades. It was pretty easy to get a real nasty edge on those G horns. Not that you can't on the Bbs, but it was easy to turn a G mello into a Lazerphone and threaten harm to small children in the front rows. Again approach and technique was the answer then and still is now.

[Kansan]

Unless you've got talent and instruction at the level of BD or Star, buy Bb. Those were the only corps that made Gs sound good.

That is just a silly statement.

Go back and Listen to The Madison Scouts 79 until they got Bb Bando Horns.

Go Back and listen to some Sky Ryders stuff.

Cavaliers, Phantom, Spirit of Atlanta, Velvet Knights, Bridgemen, Cadets, Santa Clara........................ Lots of G Lines that sounded great. There were some that never made top 12 that were great as well.

[Kansan]

Im very interested in the general opinion on purchasing a new line for a new corps. Personally I'm biased toward G horns but question, Is there a bias against bugles in the judging community right now, whether Open or World Class? Would brass scores automatically handicap a group due to the perceived superior quality of the Bb horns, regardless of which side you may come down on the ongoing debate?

If your Corps is Open Class, I'd say it really doesn't matter especially if the corps is not near ready to make a run for World Class.

If you have a good group and want fat support from King, Yamaha, Jupitor or Dynasty, then you will want to go with Bb so you can do that 2 year contract thingy that is so popular with the "Big Boys". Can't really blame them for this situation.

I started a Senior/All Age Corps and started by buyin some Bb/F Brass which was never used because I came across a 2 valve G Line for a good deal. We used the 2v G Bugles for about 4 years and then came across a 3 Vavle G Line for a good deal that we use now. Yes, other Senior Corps are going with Bb but I don't see any advantage between Bb and G in the Senior Circuit.

DCI: I'd have do know if your starting with a large budget or shoestringing it.

All the money in the World: I'd buy Kanstul or King Brass.

Shoestring: Option 1 is to round up some 6 Melllos and 12 Baritones in Bb and let Trumpet Players bring their own.

Find a Corps that has folded and has not yet unloaded their Horns.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Kansan

[DWEST]

If money wasn't a problem I would have both.

Bb for the years with many rookies in the corps.

G for the years with many drum corps vets.

[MoonHill]

If money wasn't a problem I would have both.

Bb for the years with many rookies in the corps.

G for the years with many drum corps vets.

Oh, lordy. If money or economics wasn't an issue at all, I'd probably go nuts and have a truly "any-key" hornline. Bb and C trumpets, maybe some G sops. F mellophones, Bb Baritones, G euphoniums, C contrabases...

I have no idea how much trouble we'd end up going through getting everything tuned up, but #### our arrangements would have some really awesome overtones and chord structures...

"Nuts" is definitely the word.

[mchromik]

Well now, if money were not an option then I would have Ziggy build me a line with a some true 'marching' trumpets. Wrapped like a Powerbore with a more conical cornet like layout, the bell flare of the bugles, and a TAN slide. Then I would have him copy the Yamaha 204 mello except add a TAN slide. His Baris and Euphs would do, but I would indulge any improvements he might like to try. I would like him to redesign the 5/4 marching Tuba to something more K-90 like but with 4 valves please. The horns would be built with extra bracing and extra mass and be fitted with custom Pelican Cases.

Dream Big.

[Bob H]

Well now, if money were not an option then I would have Ziggy build me a line with a some true 'marching' trumpets. Wrapped like a Powerbore with a more conical cornet like layout, the bell flare of the bugles, and a TAN slide.Pelican Cases.

Dream Big.

Try a Flip Oakes Wild thing.. Has a Bell Flare like a Powerbore and has different slides....Kanstul makes them for Filp Oakes...

"The bell is one of the most significant features of this horn. It is open wrapped, hand hammered, one piece with a very large throat with a 5" flare which helps to produce it's large "Wild Thing" sound.

The horn also comes with two distinctly different tuning slides.

Each tuning slide is stamped #1 and #2 for easy identification.

The #1 tuning slide is cylindrical, with a .470" bore for the biggest and most open sound.

The #2 tuning slide is conical starting at .460" bore and opens to .470" bore, which adds just the right amount of resistance to produce a warm full tone." http://www.flipoakes.com/bflat_trumpet.htm

[CuriousMe]

And what 'blending' issue is this? Any seasoned mello player will tell you that the F mello feels 'right' for it is finally a true middle voice. The G mello was more or less written in the same range as the second and third sopranos. We had to fight to produce a distinctive 'mello' tone. The key of the midvoices can be adjusted for in certain warm-up exercises and isn't a big deal at all. The blend with a true alto voice is superb. I fully understand folks missing the bright powerful sound of the G lines. There are times I miss it as well. But life for us middle horn guys has improved with the switch to Bb/F.

I fully agree that training and approach is everything. Even a two valve G line can be taught to play in tune. I think the perceived differences in the sound between concert pitch and G has far more to do with approach then the key of the horns. The Bb/F lines of today are playing much more fully then when the switch was first made. All that being said, the concert pitch horns do seem to be a bit more forgiving in tuning and approach.

Hmmm...I was a pretty seasoned mello player (I played trumpet outside of DC and mello in DC) and I would have to disagree. While our parts were written in the same range as the sop parts....I don't recall ever struggling to produce a distinctive "mello" tone. I think that may be an arranging issue more than anything else.

Yes, G's can become laserphones pretty easily, definitely something that players have to be taught to avoid....but I didn't find it hard to sound like a mello instead of a sop.

Edited September 20, 2009 by CuriousMe