OdeToArsenal47 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) I feel like there is probably something dumb that I'm missing, but I can't get the valves in at all. They were really slow so I took them out (first mistake ) and oiled them up. I put it back in, moved it up and down until it was moving quickly and then started rotating it in. I read that I'm supposed to hear a click but I didn't and it just tightens up. Then the screw on the top of the valve doesn't go all the way down for me to screw on. I'm afraid to push the valve down because I feel like I'm forcing it. It's like this for all of the valves, so I don't think it's broken, I'm just doing something wrong. Anyone have an idea what this saxophone player's doing wrong? Perhaps I should just hand it to a brass guy? Edited November 25, 2009 by OdeToArsenal47 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Murray Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Did you wipe off the valves before you put oil on them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OdeToArsenal47 Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 I thought I did, I'll try that again and report back in a sec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OdeToArsenal47 Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 No go. I wiped it down with a paper towel and rolled up the paper towel to wipe out the casing. They were spotless. Still really stubborn though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Um...well, just a guess, but the valve guide is probably not in the track. Just look in as you put the valve in the casing and you can see where the guide will slide into the track inside the valve casing. And it doesn't hurt the valves to take them out, that's usually the best way to get oil where it needs to be. You don't have to wipe the valves off when you oil them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 And suggest using cloth instead of paper towels. Less chance of getting little pieces of paper down there. Plus cloth gets the dirt out better than the crappy paper towels we use. If the problem is the valve guides are not in, try this. Hold the valve by the cap and turn slowly while pushing down very lightly. When the guide on the valve hits the slot in the valve casing, the valve will drop down and not turn anymore (that might be the click you've been told about). But you have to keep holding down the valve to tighten the top screw (not too tight just so you don't hear clunk, clunk when you play) or the valve might pop out and you' have to start over again. Yeah, it's kind of an acquired skill if you're not used to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornsUp Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Anyone have an idea what this saxophone player's doing wrong? A. The valves are not interchangeable (except on an Ultratone II soprano). Are you putting them back in the right casings? If you're lucky the valves will be numbered, stamped on the top of the valve body. #1 valve is played by the finger you used on the F key of your sax. If you're unlucky, and can't match up the porting visually, there is only 1 out of 8 possible combinations that is right. B. Look inside the casing, shine in a little light if necessary, and see where the groove for the valve guide is located. Index the valve accordingly when you insert it, and a little radial wiggle should finish the task. C. Do not, under any circumstances, give the horn to someone's Home Improvement dad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-horns Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 A. The valves are not interchangeable (except on an Ultratone II soprano). Are you putting them back in the right casings? If you're lucky the valves will be numbered, stamped on the top of the valve body. #1 valve is played by the finger you used on the F key of your sax. If you're unlucky, and can't match up the porting visually, there is only 1 out of 8 possible combinations that is right. B. Look inside the casing, shine in a little light if necessary, and see where the groove for the valve guide is located. Index the valve accordingly when you insert it, and a little radial wiggle should finish the task. C. Do not, under any circumstances, give the horn to someone's Home Improvement dad. I'll add a couple more items to HornsUp's list... D. Do not under any circumstances force the valves. If it doesn't go in freely something is wrong. My nephew made that mistake on his trumpet and it was instantly turned into scrap metal. E. Depending on the make of the horn, if for some reason the valve key has become mis-aligned your only hope is to remove a tuning slide and see if you can line up the valve through the ports. I know that Yamaha valves are made with two holes in the top. One is a vent and the other is where the dimple on the key disc should fit. If the valve stem becomes loose, the dimple can move to the vent hole and mess things up royally. Also on Yamahas the valve body numbers are hidden by that key disc so you have to loosen the stem and lift the disc to see the number clearly. (Can you tell there are lots of Yamahas at the middle school here?) F. See C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-horns Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 After hitting the send key, I thought of something else... If you can't tell which valve goes where, follow the leadpipe (where the mouthpiece fits on the horn) and see which valve it connects to. Put a valve in that casing and try blowing through the horn. If it blows freely, theres a better than 50% chance that you have the right valve in that spot. You can do the same with the other two valves, starting with the middle one (#2). Be aware that this method isn't totally foolproof but it is better than dropping bucks at the repair shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow_7 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Two things generally keep valves from going in. The valve guide. Or some damage to the valve itself. If dropped on tile or even carpet the rounded bottom end can get a flat spot. Never a good thing in that instance. Also if a tuning slide or other things push the valve casing, it can warp over time or not so much time. Some instrument cases push on the 2nd valve slide pretty hard, which can be problematic long term. I've also had it where welding was done without removing the valves that caused a valve cap and probably other things to warp. The valve casing is roughly 50% of the weight and costs of a horn. Mess it up too bad and you're looking at a new horn. I'm just going to assume that you didn't line the valve guides up. Yes you should remove the valves and clean them with cloth. If you can, also clean the inner tube of the valve with cloth. The friction of metal moving on metal creates little filings and such that should be cleaned / removed periodically with use. Most of them settle in the bottle valve caps, so take them off and clean them too. Dust and dirt gets in there too, so it's not all metal. But that dirt degrades the performance of the valves and just adding oil doesn't always make things better. There's a point of diminishing returns. You should do them one at a time so you don't get the order messed up. There are ways to redetermine the proper order if you do so don't panic. Numbers on valves, or just follow the tubes. If you can't blow through the horn, you got it wrong, try again. By and large the valves should just go in, you shouldn't need to force anything. If they don't gently spin them until the valve guide lines up and it basically falls in. Be careful though as some valve guides are plastic. And some valve clusters let you put the valves in right AND 180 degrees off axis (trumpets / some mellos). Again, if you can't blow through the horn, you got it wrong. It is a bit of an acquired skill. But a needed one. In arid climates (very dry) you might be better served spraying water on the valves than using oil. Ogden, Utah always seemed to be problematic on tour with that. If you kept using oil, you could easily use up an entire bottle in one day of rehearsing. Always try to do your cleaning indoors. At a minimum lay down some towels to keep round parts from rolling. If you can do it over carpet just in case, and/or on a bed (but don't use it until done) and you can get the job done fairly safely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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