FreelancerAlumni Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Really, interesting topic. And thanks for the informed comment above. Cornets just might sound better and be able to project more or sound louder since they would not get that super bright, almost airy sound at the extreme dynamics. In some ways, especially at the softer dynamic, the soprano gets a darker sound than the trumpet. A cornet may more likely mimic that. As far as conical versus cyndrical...hmm...well, a soprano was played with a trumpet and not a cornet mouthpiece. No one has seemed to mention that yet. So, we know that the leadpipe and the beginning of the horn is much more like a trumpet (cyndrical) than the cornet. But the flare of the bell of the sops were much much more gradual than a trumpet and also a soprano used to loop around twice. Those two things are like the cornet. All in all, a very interesting topic and would love to hear a line with cornets. The only scary thing, I could never imagine a jazz based corps like the blue devils playing on cornets. Who ever heard of screamin cornets? A Bugle is not a Coronet, hence the different mouthpiece. If you go way back in time, bugle mouthpieces were different than Trumpet mouthpieces. Now the real question should be is: Should they be the same? I would say no, they shouldn't be the same. Monette makes different mouthpieces for there Bb, C, Eb (ect...) horns, I would suspect that a G horn would be no different. There's a "standard" within the industry as to mouthpiece end diameters. For a trumpet that diameter is approx. 0.330" (give or take 0.005" or so). The reason this was established was to eliminate the "step" between the end of the mouthpiece and the beginning of the lead-pipe tubing. there is already a "gap" that plays a very significant role in the instruments playability. Any "step" combined with the "gap" would severely comprimise the horns slotting, resistance and overall playability. To be more specific about the difference between a Cornet and Trumpet mouthpiece, it's about the beginning tubing size of the horn. A Cornet starts smaller than a Trumpet. So the ends of the mouthpiece's are different, as well as the shanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreelancerAlumni Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 (edited) And what soprano(s) are you referring to, and how are you measuring the taper? Does it run the complete length of the pipe? I don't have any sopranos in my collection that have the taper continuing into the bow of the leadpipe. This includes: Getzen slider Olds PR DEG 2V King K-20 American Command PowerBore American Command .470 bore AmericanA Brand X .470 Blue Devils 2V Kanstul USMC 2V These all are obviously just using existing trumpet leadpipe mandrels. It's VERY difficult to measure the actual taper, plus, it will vary in both length and rate based on each manufacture. Some high end horns even use what is called "step" tapering. There are even some high end replacement lead-pipes that don't even use a "drawn taper" lead-pipe at all ! There actually machined to very close tolerances in a lathe out of billet alloy metal. but getting back to the question at hand. To see how a lead-pipe is made is fairly amazing. It starts off as a flat sheet of metal, cut to size and shape, notched and welded together, then hammered over a rod to get it sort of round. Then it is drawn thru a lead washer under a certain amount of pull force. The shape of the initial cut metal combined with the pull thru the lead washer is what gives the tubing a "taper". Now if the lead-pipe is short enough its just cut to length, but if it's a long one it may need to be bent. Bending the tubing involves freezing a soap solution (Kanstul uses Murphy s Oil Soap) in the tube then using a Mandrell, bending the tubing to the desired bend, The frozen soap acts as a lubricant as well as in internal structure that keeps the metal from kinking or collapsing. In short. the taper is of one size at one end and another, larger size at the other. The way I measured mine was with a micrometer at the mouthpiece end then again at the tuning slide end. (0.330 to 0.470 over approx 17 inches. That's only 0.140" over the entire length. A VERY long taper). It's would be interesting to note here that the industry considers the instruments "bore size" to be measured at where the tubing enters the valve case (in the case of a valved instrument). Why there, and not at the tuning slide? Because some instruments taper all the way to the valve case. Just depends on the manufacture and how there particular instrument is designed. There all just a bit different. Instrument construction is an ART ! And those who make the instruments are Artisan Chraftsman. Very talented people indeed. The only "Trumpet" mass produced that I know of that has a 0.470 bore (most Sop's use this bore) is the Flip Oaks, "Wild Thing", which is made by Kanstul. Therefor, any lead-pipe made to those specifications would not be using Mandrell's made for a Trumpet. The tubing will not fit it. Edited August 27, 2011 by FreelancerAlumni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornsUp Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 The way I measured mine was with a micrometer at the mouthpiece end then again at the tuning slide end. (0.330 to 0.470 over approx 17 inches. That's only 0.140" over the entire length. A VERY long taper). So, you only measured the ends? And you miked the O.D. to measure the I.D.? Use that mike and measure at every inch of that pipe. Let us know what you find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreelancerAlumni Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 So, you only measured the ends? And you miked the O.D. to measure the I.D.? Use that mike and measure at every inch of that pipe. Let us know what you find. Yes and no. I do not know the thickness of the sheet metal that the lead-pipe is made of. what I did do was measure the end of my mouthpiece (I/D) since they are of industry standard, the will match up to very close tolerance. The end was measured at the end of the removed tuning slide (measurement was the tuning slide). So, taking measurements the length of the I/D of the lead-pipe cane be done, but is a very laborious and time consuming. So, I took measurements of the O/D since the sheet metal is of a (fairly) continuous thickness (this does change somewhat during the drawing process) measuring the O/D can give you a fairly accurate idea of the taper and its rate. So here it is at fairly close to each inch of the lead-pipe. 0.400 (right at the end of the receiver. Lead-pipe is approx 1.5" inside of receiver) 0.410 0.440 0.470 0.490 0.485 (starting bend) 0.480 0.480 0.485 0.490 (end of bend) 0.495 0.500 0.507 0.510 (this is the point where the lead-pipe enters the tuning slide bung which covers about 2" of the end of the lead-pipe) These measurements were taken off of my Kanstul made Custom Class "G" Soprano Bugle. This horn started life as a standard Soprano (ser #919). Last December I had Zig and his crew install a Power-Bore Bell, but leave the standard lead-pipe. The reason I left the standard lead-pipe is because the Power-Bore reciever would not fit my mouthpiece. A little background information may be helpful here. My day job (actually grave shift) is a Master Fabricator/Maintainer of glass handling robotics. I am also a Master Machinist and metals fabricator. My tools of the trade all have a tolerance within the industry standard of 0.001". I often machine and measure precision fitted parts to a half millionth of an inch tolerance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornsUp Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 0.400 (right at the end of the receiver. Lead-pipe is approx 1.5" inside of receiver) 0.410 0.440 0.470 0.490 0.485 (starting bend) 0.480 0.480 0.485 0.490 (end of bend) 0.495 0.500 0.507 0.510 Interesting. This pipe has a decreasing taper rate over its entire length. It would be interesting to try it out on some other G sopranos. It may have been derived from, or is doing double duty as, a leadpipe for some other lower-pitched instrument. Most leadpipes (and branches) are straight tapers because those types of mandrels were easy to machine. CNC technology nowadays enables the turning of more exotic tapers. Although feathered joints are still used on one-piece bells, all other brass instrument tubing has been seamless for a century or so. 15 or16 thousandths wall thickness is pretty typical for most brass instrument tubing. The taper drawing process does not significantly alter this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreelancerAlumni Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Interesting. This pipe has a decreasing taper rate over its entire length. It would be interesting to try it out on some other G sopranos. It may have been derived from, or is doing double duty as, a leadpipe for some other lower-pitched instrument. Most leadpipes (and branches) are straight tapers because those types of mandrels were easy to machine. CNC technology nowadays enables the turning of more exotic tapers. Although feathered joints are still used on one-piece bells, all other brass instrument tubing has been seamless for a century or so. 15 or16 thousandths wall thickness is pretty typical for most brass instrument tubing. The taper drawing process does not significantly alter this. All I can speak of is my Kanstul Sop. Of which I consider the ultimate of "G" horn design (my opinion). The taper is not decreasing. The small end is where the mouthpiece is, then it gets larger. This makes it 'increasing" in size, conical shape. The decrease in size at the bend is probably a result of the bending process. Even with the frozen soap as an internal support (I've even used sand in tubing) there can still be some collapsing of the tube. I cant speak for other manufactures, but at kanstul (I was given a tour of the horn making process back in December) all the tubing is made from flat sheet. Including the bells. Valve cases are machined from pre-man tube. one of the tubing sources I use does offer instrumentation tubing in the following thicknesses: 0.035 or 20 ga 0.049 or 18 ga 0.065 or 16 ga These are available in diameter sizes between 1/4" to 1" O/D The smallest wall tubing that I have been able to find is 26 ga or 0.018 (18 thousands of an inch) VERY weak tubing! I'm pretty sure that if you measured any normal quality horn (any brass instrument) there will be some sort of lead-pipe taper. The taper there, is as important as the taper in the mouthpiece. Without it, the horn just wont sound right. And just as there are different tapers in the mouthpiece that affect the sound, so does the lead-pipe taper. That's why most horn manufactures supply a specific mouthpiece with there horns. That mouthpiece is matched to play in the way the horn manufactures specifications for that particular horn (reputable horn brands). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornsUp Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 All I can speak of is my Kanstul Sop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornsUp Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 The taper is not decreasing. The RATE of taper is decreasing, from .030/inch at one end to .05/inch at the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornsUp Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 at kanstul I was given a tour of the horn making process back in December That's a start. I first met Zig Kanstul at the Olds plant. He offered me a job there, in Sept. 1968. I hung around his Benge facility for the two years I lived in SoCal. That building and equipment is now the Kanstul factory, which I have visited and buy components from. I have made numerous visits to alll 3 Getzen plants, beginning in 1962. Also to the Holton factory on the other side of town. And consulted with DEG, whose prototype shop was a bit down the road. I have visited the manufacturing facility on the 4th floor of Whaley, Royce & Co. in Toronto. I worked at Modl in West Germany for a while, developing G bugle prototypes. While I was there, I got to tour the Meinl-Weston factory. I used to visit with Ren Schilke at both his downtown Chicago facilities, I learned more about brass instrument design from him than I ever learned out of a book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornsUp Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 The smallest wall tubing that I have been able to find is 26 ga or 0.018 I just measured a Kanstul G soprano. The tuning slide I.D. is .470. The O.D. is .498. Halve the difference, the wall thickness is .014. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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