Cornet instead of Trumpet? Flugel instead of Mellophone?

[HornsUp]

I think I have to differ here. G sops (at least in the V/R and 2 valve days) were very much conical.

You got that backward. Every type of valved G soprano manufactured since 1930 has been made from existing Bb trumpet components, with cylindrical tubing added to lower the key.

[FreelancerAlumni]

Cornets are conical instruments, but G sopranos are cylindrical, so there would definitely be a timbre change there.

Nope ! Bugles, of which Sopranos are, are conical (tapered bore) instruments. Trumpets are (considered) cylindrical bore instruments. Even though they both have tapered lead-pipes, the Bugle has a more gradual, longer taper on it's lead-pipe. Cornets and Flugel Horns also fit into this category. A Trumpet is a Trumpet, a Cornet is a Cornet, and a Bugle is a Bugle, They have different construction make-ups and they have different names for a reason. There is a Bugle in Bb, it's construction? Conical ! That's why it's called a Bb Bugle and not a Trumpet (Yes I know this flies in the face of my signature line).

Yes there was a point in time where trumpets were "Frakenstined" into Bugles. They produced horrible sound, thus they died out. My Avatar shows me playing the pinicle of Bugle technology (and was NEVER a butchered up Trumpet). The Kanstul made Custom Class, three valve "G" Soprano Bugle. My horn is from the late 80's time frame. I brought it back to kanstul for a complete overhaul and to have a Powerbore Bell installed, but kept the standered lead-pipe. The result (IMHO) is a far superior Bugle than either the Standered or the Powerbore. It's the best of both worlds. Very stable in the upper-register and yet still has the warm - round sound of a high quality Soprano Bugle (witch it is!). Much like that of its close cousin, the Cornet.

Edited August 24, 2011 by FreelancerAlumni

[HornsUp]

I brought it back to kanstul for a complete overhaul and to have a Powerbore Bell installed ...

So you now have the same bell as the Kanstul Coliseum trumpets and the Flip Oakes "Wild Thing" trumpets.

[Dave]

Nope ! Bugles, of which Sopranos are, are conical (tapered bore) instruments. Trumpets are (considered) cylindrical bore instruments. Even though they both have tapered lead-pipes, the Bugle has a more gradual, longer taper on it's lead-pipe. Cornets and Flugel Horns also fit into this category. A Trumpet is a Trumpet, a Cornet is a Cornet, and a Bugle is a Bugle, They have different construction make-ups and they have different names for a reason. There is a Bugle in Bb, it's construction? Conical ! That's why it's called a Bb Bugle and not a Trumpet (Yes I know this flies in the face of my signature line).

No, they're not. A G soprano actually has more cylindrical tubing than a Bb trumpet. The reason is that in their manufacture, horn makers basically are taking a trumpet body and just extending the tubes (which is also the reason G bugles have issues with tuning; they weren't designed to play in G, they are essentially horns altered to be pitched in that key, when you really get down to the horn making basics of it). They use a lot of the same tooling to make G and Bb horns, they're just using longer tubes to lower the pitch.

Now, old-style bugles were certainly conical--but the bugles that were used in the establishment of the first civilian drum & bugle corps post-WWI were actually dubbed "field trumpets" because they were so much more trumpet-like in appearance than their much more conical predecessors. I am a fan of the bugle terminology as much as the next guy simply out of respect for history, but the reality is that the only substantial difference between a soprano and a trumpet is a few inches of tubing--cylindrical tubing.

[FreelancerAlumni]

So you now have the same bell as the Kanstul Coliseum trumpets and the Flip Oakes "Wild Thing" trumpets.

Yep, The Powerbore bell preceded the Coliseum trumpet. So the Coliseum trumpet actually has the Powerbore Bell. Now as for the Wild Thing? Mr. Flip Oaks (as I understand) consulted with Zig Kanstul in the horns construction. I believe (can't really find the actual dates, I'll have to write Zig and Flip) the Powerbore Bell developed during the same time frame (I think it was late 70"s early 80"s) for the Wild thing Trumpet. Another thing the two horns share are the bore size .470" (I think there is also a smaller bore Wild Thing).

So, I'm happy to say that yes, My Soprano shares the same Bell as the Wild Thing. A great bell for two great horns.

[FreelancerAlumni]

No, they're not. A G soprano actually has more cylindrical tubing than a Bb trumpet. The reason is that in their manufacture, horn makers basically are taking a trumpet body and just extending the tubes (which is also the reason G bugles have issues with tuning; they weren't designed to play in G, they are essentially horns altered to be pitched in that key, when you really get down to the horn making basics of it). They use a lot of the same tooling to make G and Bb horns, they're just using longer tubes to lower the pitch.

Now, old-style bugles were certainly conical--but the bugles that were used in the establishment of the first civilian drum & bugle corps post-WWI were actually dubbed "field trumpets" because they were so much more trumpet-like in appearance than their much more conical predecessors. I am a fan of the bugle terminology as much as the next guy simply out of respect for history, but the reality is that the only substantial difference between a soprano and a trumpet is a few inches of tubing--cylindrical tubing.

True, There is more cylindrical tubing in the Soprano (needed to lower the key to "G"). However, The lead-pipe on the Bugle (valved or not) has a longer taper. This is the actual lead-pipe section, not the entire section of tubing from the mouthpiece to the valve case (valved instruments) . The taper of the lead-pipe (normally) stops where the tuning slide begins. On my Trumpet (Yamaha YTR-739T) is right at 8" long. within that 8" the taper is from .330 (approx) to .468 (the bore size of the horn). Now compare that to the length of the Soprano bugle which has a lead-pipe length of (approx) 17 inches with a taper from the same .330 to .470". A much longer tapered section. Some very good information on the effects of taper within the lead-pipe and the effects of bell flare and taper can be had from the Smith-Watkins web site: http://www.smithwatkins.com/ library section.

It's the Length and rate of taper that is the main difference between a Bugle and a Trumpet. This is the main reason why you can't just take a trumpet and extend the tubing so it is pitched in "G" like they did post WW-II. Without the proper balance between lead-pipe taper and length you will have a horn that just sounds terrible, with intonation problems.

With everything that I have learned from folks who both design and manufacture horns, I stick to my previous statement. It's about the taper. Are there any of those post WW-II horns still being manufactured and played ?

[Dave]

I've never heard of that definition of conical. The easiest way to tell if an instrument is conical or cylindrical is to take out the main tuning slide and turn it around; if you can reinsert it it's cylindrical, if not, it's conical. You can do that on a trumpet and a sop because both are, by typical definitions within the brass manufacturing industry, cylindrical instruments. Sopranos are, as I said, just trumpets with extended tubing and (at least in the case of Kanstuls) modified bells.

I don't know if they're still making those bugles (probably not), I was just using them as an example of the transition in bugle design from the older-style truly conical bugles (like these) to the style that led more directly to what were using in the first civilian corps (like this one). There used to be a bugle website run by a guy who either does or did judge brass for DCI; as I recall, he mentioned that bugles weren't standardized in G until the later style was adopted.

[Cadets98]

"Cornets are conical"

I've been advocating Cornets rather than Trumpets for years. I think the whole Bb vs G argument is really about the fact that there are issues with using Trumpets rather than Sopranos (brighter sound, sops can play with more volume before losing quality and the directional aspect of the Trumpets' sound projection - sops' sound tends to spread out while trumpets' is like a laser beam). IMO, Cornets would help with all of these issues, and particularly the directional aspect due to the conical bore. There don't seem to be similar issues with mellos/baris/tubas - the switch to Bb for these instruments doesn't seem to have any drawbacks.

Flugels vs Mellos.

The Mello sound is very distinct, it carries through the trumpets without getting lost. Flugels tend to get buried under the trumpets. I like the flugel sound, but when your trumpets are playing its difficult to hear them. The Crossmen are marching both flugels and mellos this year (my nephew is playing one), they've taken this problem into account in both the arrangements and the show design (the flugels are right up front for most of the show). So, you can use them successfully, but you have to be smart about it.

A variety of corps used to march both mellos and french horns (27th Lancers did when I was there), both of which have very distinct sounds that carry well. The problems there were tuning and the difficulty of marching and playing on a French Horn mouthpiece. I can't remember the last time I saw a marching French Horn in drum corps (though, oddly, there's no shortage of mellophone players that use French Horn mouthpieces with an adaptor - makes sense for people that are French Horn mouthpieces, but it has to change your sound which is an issue if most of the line are using mello mouthpieces).

Really, interesting topic. And thanks for the informed comment above. Cornets just might sound better and be able to project more or sound louder since they would not get that super bright, almost airy sound at the extreme dynamics. In some ways, especially at the softer dynamic, the soprano gets a darker sound than the trumpet. A cornet may more likely mimic that.

As far as conical versus cyndrical...hmm...well, a soprano was played with a trumpet and not a cornet mouthpiece. No one has seemed to mention that yet. So, we know that the leadpipe and the beginning of the horn is much more like a trumpet (cyndrical) than the cornet. But the flare of the bell of the sops were much much more gradual than a trumpet and also a soprano used to loop around twice. Those two things are like the cornet. All in all, a very interesting topic and would love to hear a line with cornets. The only scary thing, I could never imagine a jazz based corps like the blue devils playing on cornets. Who ever heard of screamin cornets?

[HornsUp]

On my Trumpet (Yamaha YTR-739T) is right at 8" long. within that 8" the taper is from .330 (approx) to .468 (the bore size of the horn). Now compare that to the length of the Soprano bugle which has a lead-pipe length of (approx) 17 inches ....

And what soprano(s) are you referring to, and how are you measuring the taper? Does it run the complete length of the pipe?

I don't have any sopranos in my collection that have the taper continuing into the bow of the leadpipe. This includes:

Getzen slider

Olds PR

DEG 2V

King K-20

American Command PowerBore

American Command .470 bore AmericanA

Brand X .470 Blue Devils 2V

Kanstul USMC 2V

These all are obviously just using existing trumpet leadpipe mandrels.

[FreelancerAlumni]

I've never heard of that definition of conical. The easiest way to tell if an instrument is conical or cylindrical is to take out the main tuning slide and turn it around; if you can reinsert it it's cylindrical, if not, it's conical. You can do that on a trumpet and a sop because both are, by typical definitions within the brass manufacturing industry, cylindrical instruments. Sopranos are, as I said, just trumpets with extended tubing and (at least in the case of Kanstuls) modified bells.

I don't know if they're still making those bugles (probably not), I was just using them as an example of the transition in bugle design from the older-style truly conical bugles (like these) to the style that led more directly to what were using in the first civilian corps (like this one). There used to be a bugle website run by a guy who either does or did judge brass for DCI; as I recall, he mentioned that bugles weren't standardized in G until the later style was adopted.

Taking the tuning slide out and turning it around means only that the particular (most manufactures) ended the lead-pipe at the joint where the tuning slide begins. This totally depends on the manufacture and how they worked out the particulars of there design. If the horn is going to be a massed produced horn of reasonable price, then they would not want to continue the conical shape thru the tuning slide. this will most surly complicate the manufacture and raise the price accordingly. Even Flugelhorns (a VERY conical instrument) is manufactured this way (in mass). However custom or very high end horns may differ, just depends on how its designed. Either way, the industry considers Cornets, Flugelhorns, French Horns and Bugles as essentially, conical shaped horns.