Pete Freedman Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Strange thing about this site. Because there are specific brass and percussion boards, I think people don't want to post instrumentation questions on this forum. A brass question would seem to be more appropriate on the other forum. But those forums aren't very active, so people don't bother. This thread is about both brass and percussion, so it's fine. The point is, if they'd allow brass and/or percussion threads on this forum (maybe they do? Clearly this one's ok for now at least) there'd be a lot more discussion of these topics. Anyway, play on... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad T. Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 This makes a lot of sense. We (Garden State circuit corps) used a combination of Dynasty II's and DEG, with maybe a King here and there. Some were silver; most were chrome. They all looked roughly the same from a distance. But all the gold stuff has different shades of reddish vs. yellowish vs. champagne colored. Considering 2-valve instrumentation; how many major keys could you actually play (if you needed all the notes, so to speak) and how many corresponding minors? I think some of the famed sound difference is due to the limited palette of keys. I could be wrong on this point. It's just my theory. My SoundSport ensemble has a mix of chrome and silver plated bugles. From a distance you can't tell, but up close the blue hues of the chrome vs the yellow hues of the silver really contrast. Bugles were chrome plated simply because it looks better on the field than lacquer, and because chrome plating holds up far better than lacquer or silver. Early single piston bugles could be had in lacquer, silver, satin silver, chrome, gold washed bell, or even raw brass. Eventually it seems that chrome was settled on as the standard. DEG 2v horns were available in lacquer (Memphis Blues and Colts), silver, or chrome. King 2v horns were available in silver or chrome. The most common keys to play 2v bugles in are F, C, G, and D major and the relative minors of d, a, e, and b. Going out from those keys you run into Bb (can't play low Eb) or A (can't play low G#). With creative inversions you can play in additional keys. And the S leadpipe on Contrabasses? That was standard until the 3 and 4 valve era. The first contras made by Getzen and Whaley Royce all had S pipes. The S pipe even came on some of DEG and Kanstul's 3 and 4 valve GG contras. Everyone sort of settled on the U pipe in the 90s, except Kanstul's 4v Contra Grande with continued to have an S pipe, and then later King's System Blue brought it back. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Freedman Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 My SoundSport ensemble has a mix of chrome and silver plated bugles. From a distance you can't tell, but up close the blue hues of the chrome vs the yellow hues of the silver really contrast. Bugles were chrome plated simply because it looks better on the field than lacquer, and because chrome plating holds up far better than lacquer or silver. Early single piston bugles could be had in lacquer, silver, satin silver, chrome, gold washed bell, or even raw brass. Eventually it seems that chrome was settled on as the standard. DEG 2v horns were available in lacquer (Memphis Blues and Colts), silver, or chrome. King 2v horns were available in silver or chrome. The most common keys to play 2v bugles in are F, C, G, and D major and the relative minors of d, a, e, and b. Going out from those keys you run into Bb (can't play low Eb) or A (can't play low G#). With creative inversions you can play in additional keys. And the S leadpipe on Contrabasses? That was standard until the 3 and 4 valve era. The first contras made by Getzen and Whaley Royce all had S pipes. The S pipe even came on some of DEG and Kanstul's 3 and 4 valve GG contras. Everyone sort of settled on the U pipe in the 90s, except Kanstul's 4v Contra Grande with continued to have an S pipe, and then later King's System Blue brought it back. Such good information. Kamarag liked it, so it must be true! It makes sense that since kids break stuff, and instruments can last a long time if they are not broken, then steps must be taken to protect the instruments. If chrome plating helps achieve that, then that fits. And then if other kids see 'elite' independent groups like drum corps using silver colored instruments, they might view that as exotic, thus influencing the demand on the color of intermediate/step-up instruments. As to the key signatures, maybe that's what people were really used to unconsciously - those four keys. But somebody said they still pretty much play in those keys... but wait - is that concert pitch? I mean, are they still playing the same concert pitch keys as before? Playing the same relative keys but therefore different concert pitches could make a big difference in perception. Maybe. I've heard that the bore size argument takes a beating when it is pointed out that the range of available bore sizes overlaps greatly between G and Bb instruments. We haven't really talked about who plays what bore sizes ... that's getting pretty nitty gritty. But many do believe the allegedly smaller bore size today ruins the classic drum corps sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad T. Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 The keys I listed are relative keys to the bugle. Those would be concert pitch C, G, D, and A, and associated relative minors a, e, b, and f#. Corps today seem to congregate in the concert Ab, Eb, Bb, F area. A great example of this would be Phantom's "Fire of Eternal Glory." The G bugle version and the Bb brass version have the same voicing and parts, but the G bugle version is written in concert C, while the Bb brass version was transposed to concert Bb. The bore of Bb vs G horns, as a measurable difference, not a "G sounds better" "No Bb sounds better" bickering party, breaks down like this: Dynasty G: Sop, Mello - .460 Baritone - .560 Euph - .570 Contra (3v 4/4) - .670 Contra (4v 5/4) - .710 Kanstul G: Sop, Alto, Mello, French Horn - .470 Baritone - .562 Euph - .593 Contra (4/4) - .656 Contra (5/4) - .689 Olds piston/rotor bugles: Sop, Mello, French horn - .468 Bari - .562 Contra - .656 And compared to Yamaha Bb/F: Trumpet (Xeno 8335) - .459 Mello - .462 Bari/Euph - .571 Tuba - .728 System Blue: Trumpet - .459 Mello - .468 Hybrid Bari - .562 Tuba - .734 Jupiter: Trumpet/Mello - .460 Bari - .531 Euph - .592 Tuba - .689 So what I am seeing across this comparison is that high bugle voices had larger bores compared to their Bb modern counterparts. However, when it comes to low brass, especially tubas, Kanstul makes one of the largest marching contras out there at a bell-to-bow length of 42", while at the same time having the smallest bore of any comparable marching tuba/Contra. Yet, even with the huge bore of the Yamaha and King horns, their sound projection is nothing like I would expect. Is this an issue of lack of air from extensive marching? Are the players not used to large bore horns? Most concert tubas are in the low/mid .700s. One of the defining sound characteristics of old school drum corps was the bass voice. You didn't get a warm, fuzzy presence like with a synth, but rather just the feeling of being slapped in the face with a bass trombone at FFF. A raw power to the bass chords. I would easily say that the undersized bore in the contras was key to that. The DEG 2v Contra had a similar sized bore while King began exploring larger sizes with the K-90. This gave the King corps a depth unavailable on a "pea shooter" horn. Today I can hardly hear the tubas at all. All of the big brass hits have synth chords and open 5th bass notes filling in to give a presence that is otherwise lacking. I refuse to believe that lobbing off 5 feet of tubing to bring a GG Contra up to BBb would change the tone quality and presence of the fundamental horn (not talking harmonics/overtones). But yet this seems to be the case. My experience with System Blue is very limited, perhaps their giant bore tuba does bring back some of the missed presence and volume! But having played Jupiter and heard plenty of Yamaha and Jupiter corps, there's just something lacking at times. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Freedman Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Wonderful data. While some of the sops/mellos are as you say somewhat smaller bore now, it does appear that Dynasty high brass bore was similar or the same as today. But nobody has complained that the Bb trumpets all sound like Dynasty sopranos. And as you say the low brass is all over the place. I have heard it said that the bell shape and mouthpiece internal shape make much more of a difference in sound than the bore size. Do you agree? Do you think they might have tended to be different on G bugles? Here are several explanations for any sound difference: - Playing in different and perhaps more varied keys - Playing higher notes. Well, three half-steps on average anyway. Has to make some difference. - Bell shape, mouthpiece shape - identical equipment today, compared to mixed equipment in the past - new equipment today, compared to 'legacy' equipment yesterday (I suppose the top corps were already switching out whole lines periodically, so this may not be valid for the top corps.) - and yes, bore size These changes would have all been very sudden when all-key was introduced, and would have made purists blanch. (Blanched purist on toast is delicious on a cold winter morning, don't you think?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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