New Attitude

[BariBrian]

So much for a simple poll that was suppose to be a fun forum. sorry that I steped on the toes of DCI

[lucas97]

It's not about you stepping on the toes of DCI. It's about trying to place total blame of all the woes of the activity on DCI, when there's a lot more to it than that. Yes, a lot of drum corps have folded over the years. However...

1) There were hundreds of corps who went the way of the Dodo Bird who never even competed in DCI.

2) There were plenty of corps who were run by people who, as well-intentioned as they may have been, should not have been put in the position of managing a large operation like running a drum corps. And I don't care whether a corps is competing for a DCI Championship or they are simply a parade corps...it costs a lot of money to get one of these things off the ground, let alone keeping it active. I would venture a guess that more corps folded due to poor management than anything else, and this is before the corps even gets on a bus.

3) There are tons of drum corps who could not afford to continue operation on ANY level when their major sources of funding were pulled from the churches and service posts who used to sponsor them.

4) With the rise of the high school music programs and marching bands, the local kids who were looking for that base-level education on how to play the horn and drum were still finding it. But no longer were they going to the local drum corps when they could get it for free at their local high school. In essence, the high school marching band has all but replaced and made irrelevant the local community-based drum corps.

Putting the entire weight of corps folding at the foot of DCI's door is pretty short-sighted. This is NOT to say that DCI hasn't been partly responsible for some of these corps demise as well. Certainly, the leadership of DCI went through as much growing pains as any circuit did, and things are not run the same way now as they were then. They can't be. Times change. The only thing that hasn't changed is that it costs a lot of money to run a drum corps.

The other thing that hasn't changed is that DCI is a competitive circuit. If you're running a drum corps, and you choose to be a part of DCI (1974 or 2004), then you should know that being competitive requires a certain level of committment. If those corps cannot afford that level of committment financially, then perhaps they should rethink their purpose. Is it about teaching kids from scratch? Fine. Would those kids be better served by NOT going on a tour and competing against bigger and better corps? Would they be better served being a community parade corps? Do you know how much corps get for parades these days?? With the proper management, a year-round parade corps could make a nice little chunk of cash in two or three years to eventually grow into a larger and more competitive unit. Of course, they would probably have to draw from several communities in order to operate, but I could see it being a worthwhile endeavor if it was run properly. And to DCI's credit, they are becoming more proactive when it comes to assessing whether or not a new corps is financially prepared to participate in DCI events BEFORE they even go out on the road.

DCI is not perfect. But look around at the world in which we live today. In comparison to the other things kids could be doing with their summers, I'm amazed that there are any drum corps left AT ALL. The community need that drum corps used to serve is now being filled elsewhere, and I'm not sure you can ever go back. When the need isn't there, it becomes something done for "want." DCI didn't make that happen. The world made that happen.

[bawker]

Thank you for elaborating on my post, lucas.

Yet again, I'm in your debt. :)

[droclot]

This was I thought a very simple question but I guess it's not for some because they were not Marching in the 60's and 70's. So for those of you that don't get it because you are new to drum corps HISTORY, I appologize.

Whatever man... I am "new" to drum corps on your terms and you don't need to apologize for me. What has DCI done that has killed drum corps? Bflat horns? How I see that one is it makes it easier for corps to start etc. Bflat horns are EVERYWHERE! You tell me I need to start a brand new corps with G horns and I will tell you no way. And as Lucas said, the rise of competitive marching band has erased most of the need for local corps. I AM NOT SAYING THEY ARE THE SAME! :) Just saying that kids can get a similar experience through their schools. I think DCI does (especially in recent years) a great job of promoting the activity as a whole and not just "good ol' drum corps." They are getting people involved and I think that is excellent. I guess it just comes down to what each individual sees as the priority of the activity. Personally, and maybe this is just because I am new and didn't march in the 60's and 70's and I don't get it, but I think the activity is about giving youth the opportunity to come together and create something amazing. Whether that is through high schools, American Legions, churches, independent groups, whatever... it doesn't matter. I don't think the activity is about perserving "my way" and condemning anything else as being lame/wrong/corrupt. That is how I see it... but again, I am young and I really don't get it anyways. Take care.

[BariBrian]

Well,, LOL I knew that sooner or later one of you would use the term "Whatever Man" although I am a little disapointed it wasn't "Dude".

Let me say this! I respect all of you for sticking up for your activity against what you have precieved as an attack. You have shown a loyalty that has been with drum corps. youth from the beginning I suspect. For those of you not affraid to put the corps. you were associated with, especially! I do believe however in one case I may have bit the hand that is feeding one of you. A person that seems to be to well informed, always seems to have the answers that you are searching for , and does not associate himself with any corps. HMMM? You have fought with me about your activity as I did when I marched and didn't know any better either. For that I applaud you. It was just a simple poll: Do you feel that DCI takes itself TOO seriously? Most on the poll answered yes. hmmmmmmmmm? someone out there agrees with me I guess. I am an antique! I admit that freely! I meant nothing personal to any of you marching members. I never wanted to listen to the old guys either. The ones that had been down the road already and had found the "Potholes" always seemed like trouble makers to mee too when I was marching.

That said, I will leave you with a quote from Cathrine Burr an Ex Blue Devil

"DCI in my opinion is as corrupted as some for-profit corporations are - perhaps a natural result of what used to be many largely volunteer organizations changing into an activity rife with band instrument contracts, design firm contracts, high-priced advising instructors/consultants, expense accounts, successful bingo operations running many nights per week and all the rest. There are, of course, many good, well-meaning and talented people involved in DCI; every group needs front men, after all. But how the activity has evolved over the past 30 years has led to a closed, highly political system which now contains many not-nice and mediocre elements and personalities. What was once a non-profit musical activity for all kids, no audition required (and still is for the smaller "non-connected" corps) has become ego glorification and other rewards for a few.

The "top" DCI shows and the DVDs, CDs and other DCI products are priced and sold in comparison with professional theatrical productions - as though the performers were paid professionals instead of an amateurs paying for the privilege of "education", and were being taught by the best and the brightest on reasons of merit rather than largely political connections. I know of all too many people who were too honest and too many corps who have been thought "too drum corps" to "go along to get along" and were demoralized and discouraged. There are also instances of resume inflation, outright lies, and a general lack of accountability on the part of individual corps and the governing organization. When these abuses are publicized, politically-approved corps are excused and non-approved corps flamed.

Information flow and discussion in the activity are being overly influenced by politics and the latest methods of net trolling and the politics one finds in cases of some of the worst corporate and cult abuses. "Marketing" techniques and a pervasive lack of standards and terminology openly publicized and defined create a real sense of confusion in a veritable revolving-door of people who come innocently into this activity with hopes and dreams and are burned out quickly - unless, of course, they have the "suitable" career path qualities to become "successful" or the ability to look the other way to fit into such a system. Anonymous screen names and behind-the-scenes manipulations are being used to disrupt corps and attack critics who are "approved targets" - and the manipulation skills employed are quite well-developed and refined, with many layers of people involved to protect whomever is/are advising in such situations.

Judging is being set by those top corps being judged, and the ability to compete is controlled by financial ability or connections to keep up with whatever is deemed the latest and greatest (which only the "top" corps can afford). The scoring system is now on a totally subjective basis which can be manipulated in different cases to mean different things, as applicable.

For example, corps are judged to be more or less "musical" or whatever the latest style or politically-influenced fashion is (sometimes in line with more respectable musical and performance fashions and merits, and sometimes not). What these standards are, no one really knows sometimes - ambiguity being found to be more easily manipulated than clear and concise information. Or, they have more to do with symphonic and orchestral styles than traditionally drum corps meanings and definitions (drum corps developed from the outdoor field idiom as a means to bring the community, not dollars, together). Or, they have more to do with who is promulgating them.

The rules and terminology themselves are set by those who have the most influence and money to ensure they survive and others flounder - and that's from playing the "public" game. There are other more insidious demoralization and disinformation methods employed in the drum corps media, a lot of them supporting confusion and disinformation. For example, rankings and reviews based upon subjective scores are constantly being used and manipulated via the "approved" activity critics as the prime measures of success to influence youthful interest and opinions. Some of these are directly contradictory, and the standards of criticism from corps to corps and the score assigned objectively unclear. General questions from the fan base - generally old corps people - if critical of directions or request accountability in non-approved areas are generally answered (if answered at all) with "lump it or leave it" responses, or even personal attacks.

There still exist many who are fighting for openness and accuracy concerning the activity's history and truth in advertising about today's "business". As long as even one kid joins this activity and becomes the scapegoat for the failures of their so-called adult leadership, and that leadership fails to face, be accountable for and remedy their failure as best as we can, then this activity will be far less than what we all wish for it to be. For a true lesson of any drum corps fraternity is that we are only as good as our weakest link. And when many fans are people with decades in this activity who are hanging on in the hopes of someday seeing glimpses of what they used to feel week after week, we are all dangerously bad off.

Nearly all of the current "top Division I" DCI junior corps have changed so much as to be unrecognizeable to many as drum corps. Currently and unfortunately, similar influences abound in and have changed senior corps as well. In my opinion, it is a fight over "ownership" which is the struggle - between those who are more interested in marketing, power, ego and profits and those who place people, truth, merit and music first. This has led over the years to a diminution of both the junior and senior corps activities. Conversely, the Alumni corps movement is growing.

Corps used to be about the marching members and being a positive youth and fraternal activity different from others - see the American Legion website for their statements on the values important to youth organizations. Decades ago, when the senior and junior activity was largely tied into the military veterans associations, Boy Scouts of America and schools and churches, these positive human and fraternal group values were given more than lip service. Since people weren't perfect then, naturally some groups didn't do so well in achieving these goals and communicating these virtues to all. But before there was so much money to be made and before all power was concentrated in a few hands, the abuses were on a far smaller scale than today. And it was this genuine system of volunteerism and devotion to fraternity via musical and field performance values which built the activity.

Often we have to combat issues of mediocrity and personal failures in the striving for excellence. The mediocre - those that seek to achieve through cheating and parasitizing what others achieved for their own smaller goals - saw a thriving activity, and turned it to their own goals while lying about what they actually intended and were doing, counting on the faith and hopes and dreams of others telling themselves "drum corps would always be there" and "people would never sacrifice the good for lesser goals" - particularly people who appeared to be decent on their surface.

Drum & bugle corps -must- be genuine in order to keep inspiring and building each other. Drum corps -must- be genuine in order to achieve and communicate on any level comparable to what street kids and community volunteers - largely uneducated but caring people - used to be able to regularly build, and which even all of today's money and "experts" cannot replicate for more than a few moments.

How can resume credits and awards for a few ever compare with all the enjoyments of genuinely patriotic performances for hundreds of thousands of devoted fans and citizens in communities across the U.S. and Canada? How can one more choice for privileged music students compare with an activity which provided musical opportunities, sometimes life-saving ones, for many kids which had few choices in life? And how can an activity which nearly all kids march just a few years at most compare with an activity that 10, 20, 30, 40 and more years later remains a central focus for many members who marched years and decades, inspiring an entirely new Alumni corps revival -despite all the "expert" (?) attacks and without all the "expert" (?) advantages- because there was and is nothing else like it?

I challenge myself and all of us with keeping the corps spirit and the values taught as genuinely alive, free and thriving, and not allowing mediocrity to overrun what has been one of the finest parts of my and others lives - and what could be. Further, may we extend that excellence to others whenever and wherever possible.

Besides working with others involved in the Alumni corps movement, we hope to continue organizing and contributing to the debate on how things got to where they are and where we need to go from here in order to reclaim genuine corps values and true excellence, as well as to guard against further abuses and the spreading of corruption, no matter who or what is destroyed by such people.

Drum & bugle corps once served 1000s of kids and adults as members, through 100s of corps and their connected sponsoring organizations, in the decades since the turn of this century. They bequeathed us an historic legacy which they earned through their honest efforts and achievements - no lies and slick public relations required. Many of us remember and value those days, and hope to rectify the negative things which have happened in order to get us back on track. Many of us remember an excitement that lives within each of us who refuse to be brainwashed, and to settle for much less than what could easily be.

Many of us did and still value loud acoustic horn lines, rudimental drumlines, color guards which are part of a uniformed group and equipment work (rather than constumed dance troupes and prop throwers), a level of precision marching which depends more on experienced drum corps veterans and their performance skills than the current year's "fashionable" drill designer's name on the show, genuine patriotic respect, and those other qualities and styles which once were only found in drum & bugle corps and provided a unique experience for the members and the fans in an atmosphere of openness, support and freedom from corporate-level abuses. The damage has actually been done by only a few - unfortunately enabled by those not wishing to fully open their eyes or face the worst. In analyzing the things that went wrong and the persons and trends most responsible, we should ultimately be able to make the renewed activity stronger than it ever was - if enough of us choose to do so. And thus far, it looks hopeful.

Publicity and courage in dealing with the abuses and abusers is needed, as well as holding them accountable for fulfilling the promises in their press kits. Negative resume credits need to be as publicized as their positive ones. These are the keys to stemming these sorts of people with deficient or missing hearts and consciences, in any group or activity, and letting them know that such things will no longer be tolerated.

And each person's denial must be countered and overcome, as we each face that these things happen and evil triumphs, because good people do nothing. All it takes in the beginning - before anything truly harmful is done - is a word that lies and cruelty will not be tolerated amongst one's friends, one's corps and family. It's not a question of "politics" or "not wanting to get involved" or in "just wanting to have fun"; it's a question of right and wrong, and of decency. Can anyone have genuine fun, achievement or excellence if it is dependent upon lies and protecting those who abuse others?

For more information concerning drum & bugle corps in the here and now, I suggest the Usenet newsgroup rec.arts.marching.drumcorps (be sure you know about trolling and other Usenet issues before venturing therein) and the moderated Yahoo! group oldstylebuglecorps ("OSBC"). You can join OSBC and join the discussion, as well as check out the links page for more information on the alumni movement and what drum & bugle corps was AND is.

I still enjoy playing the valve-and-rotor (French) Horn and/or Mellophone in drum & bugle corps when I can - given the politics of the activity and the prevalence of corrupt, dishonest people in the west and the midwest, most genuine alumni/classic corps primarily exists only in the northeast and Canada (until we rebuild...). I am also pursuing other marching, musical and other personal opportunities that will enhance and support my music, back on track after all these years. We continue our collective corps history and traditions by honoring our corps values and each other as fellow members.

***OTHER INTERESTS***

I am an activist (or "social catalyst") regarding "Individualism", "Excellence" and "Genius". Click HERE to go to my "Teaching & Excellence" page; click HERE for a list of books that I feel no one ought to be allowed to graduate from high school without reading and discussing. Other areas of life, history and society which are important to me are: advancing the rights of gay, lesbian and other interesting people (remember Harvey Milk); Oscar Wilde and Victorian times (go to my tattoo page to go to the link to see my "World's Greatest Oscar Wilde Tattoo"; Aaron Burr and his times. I have my two cats, ages 17 & 12 (in human years).

And another great interest of mine that I'm no longer greatly active in (although obviously I carry with me everywhere I go) are the intellectual, spiritual and artistic aspects of my tattoos. I was a 15-year member of the National Tattoo Association. My work (as an "enthusiast" or collector, not an artist) has been published in international journals and is in the UCLA Museum of Art. I also participated in a number of television panels, public shows and interviews on the subject, mostly in the 80's and early 90's. Thanks to all who visit my tattoo page - there is SO much interest there!

I tend towards libertarianism on nearly all issues of government intervention in our private lives. I'm also interested in massage therapy and other forms of alternative healing & manipulation of energies. And as this page details, I'm quite intense, and deeply interested in and committed to constant and never-ending self-development -- and being one with the many.

I live with my menagerie in southeastern Wisconsin. I am single, born 3/1/57 (see my astrological chart), never married with no children (no mistakes thus far!). However, I have always wanted a large family. While it's true that my biological clock is currently clanging, I am continuing to pursue possibilities... I have love and joy in my life, many friends across the country, and understanding of self and others - both the good and bad.

I am humbly thankful for such people who choose to do the good and right thing and so lead lives that are worth all the breaths we take - such hopes and attitudes are what makes my life what it is, no matter the challenges.

Other goals I have for myself include family, possibly through adoption. I am also interested in a few continuing education opportunities for professional certification - more on this as it happens. My commitment to kin, community and kindred is one of the many reasons I am Asatruar, and celebrate life each day with my friends!

In frith,

Catherine

[droclot]

I have to be honest... I was thinking about using dude. Next time I will be sure to use "Distinguished Gentleman." :P And my answer to the poll question of "Does DCI take themselves to seriously is 'no.' Just to clarify, the reason that I don't put the corps that I have marched with up here is because that is irrelevant. PM if you really want to know. :) Anyways, I know a lot of older "Distinguised Gentlemen and Ladies" that marched in the same era that you did. I make an effort to talk to them and learn the history of the activity that I am a part of. I don't know it all, I probably actually know very little. But I think it is wrong to assume about someone else. I do like to listen to the older guys and get everything out of them I can. BUT that does not mean that I always have to agree with them and if I don't that does not mean I am naive and I don't get it. It simply means that I disagree. Remember, you are talking just as much about current drum corps as about 70s drum corps and in that regard I could say that you really are misinformed and don't get it when it comes to the current era. But that would be ridiculous. So please don't do the same to me or my generation. Dude! B) Take care.

Edited April 16, 2004 by droclot

[bawker]

DCI,as I said, isn't all of drum corps. Does it take itself too seriously? Sure it does. But, its still a pretty entertaining product to me.

As an aside... using Catherine Burr, who would prefer that we all played piston/rotors and that the activity never progressed beyond 1976, doesn't really cement your argument. I could care less what she thinks, since she always complains, yet NEVER DOES.

There is no argument. Drum corps, like life, is what you make it.

That's why there's a DCA, a DCM and others.

So DO, and get off of DCP. :)

[BariBrian]

DCI,as I said, isn't all of drum corps. Does it take itself too seriously? Sure it does. But, its still a pretty entertaining product to me.

As an aside... using Catherine Burr, who would prefer that we all played piston/rotors and that the activity never progressed beyond 1976, doesn't really cement your argument. I could care less what she thinks, since she always complains, yet NEVER DOES.

There is no argument. Drum corps, like life, is what you make it.

That's why there's a DCA, a DCM and others.

So DO, and get off of DCP. :)

Thats how you handle other with opinions other than yours? Get off DCP? Have I verbally attacked anyone that has replied to this poll, weather that were wrong in my opinion or not? I have said on one or more occasions that I respect your opinions and the corps. you represent. I have not, have not put 1 corps. down. I just gave, and fought for my opinion. Wrong or right, you should respect it, and follow your own advice. If you don't like what I've written ,,don't read it.

[bawker]

The smiley face means I'm kidding.

Either humor doesn't play well here on DCP, or you take things too literally.

"Get off DCP" means DO, go an CREATE the drum corps you want, not literally, "You suck, go away!"

Seriously, I'm just an advocate for change from the bottom up...as it doesn't happen any other way.

[Walter]

I'm with you Baribrian.

The next thing you know they'll won't have 10-12 contras on the field, they'll

have guys playing bass guitars at full blast from the back of the field.

Now I know how the guys from the 50's & 60's felt when the pit became popular.

nobody is carring tympani around any more.

It kind of makes you wonder who is running DCI, the executives or music companies.

Some times you just want to do this