Hash marks?

[vaguardguy]

Don't remember anything about two 50 yard lines. What I do remember though is being told that the field has been pushed back X amount of yards because the bleachers were over crowded and people were sitting on the grass, so they painted a new field using yellow paint on top of the white paint already there.

Funny thing is though, I think Yamato had their best performance that night in 2002, despite not being able to see any of the yellow markings on the field.

I'll never forget that early '02 August evening in Sarnia, ONT. If I could do any II/III show from now until forever, every single night, that would be the one. I think it was part of some greater city-wide celebration, and it was advertised in banners across town as a "marching band show". I swear, that entire western Ontario town had to be at the show. The front stands were completely full, the back stands were completely full, and both sidelines had lines of people standing to watch the show. They had police actually push apart the crowds so the corps can take the field from the side. That was a larger crowd than many DivI shows I've attended, and easily the largest showing for a DivII/III competition in which I've performed (including 2003 DivII/III Finals).

Not sure why so many of the competitive corps were in exhibition that night. Maybe it was so they could perform early and be on the road for the big Coast Guard Open the following morning?

I do remember the yellow hashes that were impossible to see at dusk (I imagine we went on right before you). We too couldn't see them to save our lives (and I bet the forms weren't so hot), but like you were probably feeding off the energy from that great audience and performed accordingly. At least they made the effort to have them a different color. I always hated it when we'd be told to, "Use the inside hashes," as we were taking the field and have to consciously remember it during the show as all four hashes were white.

None of the Canadian shows in 2002 had 55-yard lines marked. They might have had the extra yardline somewhere translated over to the end of the field, and just used regular placards along the front sideline. I don't know. Neither Kitchner nor Sarnia had obviously irregular fields.

[nummy1]

I think that if High Schools have to deal with marching on a college hash (even though we use high school hashes) then a Drum corps can handle it, vice versa.

~>conner

I never had a problem with it... just sayin is all... :)

[Eddie]

I'll never forget that early '02 August evening in Sarnia, ONT. If I could do any II/III show from now until forever, every single night, that would be the one. I think it was part of some greater city-wide celebration, and it was advertised in banners across town as a "marching band show". I swear, that entire western Ontario town had to be at the show. The front stands were completely full, the back stands were completely full, and both sidelines had lines of people standing to watch the show. They had police actually push apart the crowds so the corps can take the field from the side. That was a larger crowd than many DivI shows I've attended, and easily the largest showing for a DivII/III competition in which I've performed (including 2003 DivII/III Finals).

Not sure why so many of the competitive corps were in exhibition that night. Maybe it was so they could perform early and be on the road for the big Coast Guard Open the following morning?

I do remember the yellow hashes that were impossible to see at dusk (I imagine we went on right before you). We too couldn't see them to save our lives (and I bet the forms weren't so hot), but like you were probably feeding off the energy from that great audience and performed accordingly. At least they made the effort to have them a different color. I always hated it when we'd be told to, "Use the inside hashes," as we were taking the field and have to consciously remember it during the show as all four hashes were white.

None of the Canadian shows in 2002 had 55-yard lines marked. They might have had the extra yardline somewhere translated over to the end of the field, and just used regular placards along the front sideline. I don't know. Neither Kitchner nor Sarnia had obviously irregular fields.

For sure, it was one of the, if not THEE most memorable performance I did in my 2 years of marching. Best crowd EVER! Not even enough room for the judges as they had to stand at the top of the bleachers with no more than an ### length of space. And everyone got a standing-O from all four corners of the field. Simply amazing! :)

Edited November 8, 2005 by bari_benzo

[Eddie]

Any idea why the distances for hashmarks are different from HS to college to NFL?

If I remember correctly (which isn't very often), the hashes represent a guiding system to the field goal posts at either end of the field. So High School field goal posts are wider than what you would see on college or NFL fields.

[Tez]

Any idea why the distances for hashmarks are different from HS to college to NFL?

Hash marks are closer together as you get more advanced in football (high school, to college, to pro) for one simple reason:

Closer together hashes make it easier on the offense and the kicker (so more points can be scored). No matter where a play ends up, the next play will always begin closer to the middle of the field so as to give the offense more room to work with. For the kicker, it is much easier to kick field goals from the middle of the field than from a weird angle. If the NFL used high school hash marks, there would be much less scoring because the defenses are so good. In turn, there would be way too much scoring in high school and college if the hashes were closer together, because the defenses are not as good.

I am pretty sure that the width of the uprights do not change from level to level, however.

[boilerman_05]

time to put this dimension issue to rest

Pro Dmensions

College Dimensions

High School Dimensions

Weird (Canadian) Dimensions

[horn_star]

Obviously there will be slight discrepancies from organization to organization depending on whether you're measuring these differences from the perspective of the high school markings or the NCAA ones (QR Factorization and change of coordinates matrices anyone?). Also, I know some corps start at the sideline and mark every four or eight steps, in which case the hashes become something totally different. Anyway, as someone who has lived and breathed dots for sometime now , these relationships have become extremely important and this is how I was taught to use these markings:

Using the NCAA markings as your frame of reference:

1) NCAA #'s are 14 & 10.75 from the sidelines (this is a slight approximation)

2) Pro #'s are 10 & 13 from the NCAA hash (I think this one is a minor approximation as well)

3) Pro hashes are 5.5 inside the NCAA hash

4) Center X and 35 X's if you're lucky are 10 inside the NCAA hashes (20 steps between hashes)

5) HS hash is somewhere between 3.5 & 4 outside the NCAA hashes so, while you shouldn't ever step anything off from it, it can be a useful visual reference to verify you're not waaayyy off your dot in some scenarios

P.S. - If you were to start at say, 8 FFH on the 50 and march 4x4 every 4 cts towards the back sideline, when you cross the hash (according to the system above) the step size with respect to the yard-lines (the y-component if you will) would increase. This is because the 8-5 step-size (front to back) outside the hashes is a normal 22.5" while in between the hashes it becomes 24" so that there are exactly 20 steps between hashes. So, in between the hashes, you would essentially be moving 4x4.26666667 every 4 counts instead of a true 4x4. Consequently, your path changes. You were moving at 45 degrees (relative to the sideline) while outside of the hashes and now you are moving at 46.8476 degrees relative to the sideline. If you were an electromagnetic wave, you would have been refracted as a result of moving from one medium (the area outside the hashes) to another (the area between the hashes). Consequently, the area between the hashes has an index of refraction of about 1.03387, provided that we treat the outside area (or the medium of incidence) as a perfect vacuum. If you find that air is a more appropriate medium of incidence, then our index of refraction between hashes becomes 1.03417, a difference of only .0293%.

...just a random thought I had during a basics block last past summer

[Slow Adam]

time to put this dimension issue to rest

Weird (Canadian) Dimensions

Hey now! The weird part about Canadian Football is that we punt on the 3rd down. :P

Edited November 8, 2005 by Slow Adam

[Slow Adam]

So, in between the hashes, you would essentially be moving 4x4.26666667 every 4 counts instead of a true 4x4. Consequently, your path changes. You were moving at 45 degrees (relative to the sideline) while outside of the hashes and now you are moving at 46.8476 degrees relative to the sideline. If you were an electromagnetic wave, you would have been refracted as a result of moving from one medium (the area outside the hashes) to another (the area between the hashes). Consequently, the area between the hashes has an index of refraction of about 1.03387, provided that we treat the outside area (or the medium of incidence) as a perfect vacuum. If you find that air is a more appropriate medium of incidence, then our index of refraction between hashes becomes 1.03417, a difference of only .0293%.

...just a random thought I had during a basics block last past summer

Dude it has nothing to do with a medium change, as the medium inside and outside the hashes can be assumed to be air @ S.T.P.

The resultant path direction change is due to that fact that the particle (marcher) is changing from one cartesian space to a different, non-congruent cartesian space (in this case the Y axis becomes skewed inside the hashes relative to the constantly scaled X axis which exisits both inside and outside the hashes). This situation is more like a Jacobian transformation on the individual's velocity vector than a wave refraction.

:P

[horn_star]

Dude it has nothing to do with a medium change, as the medium inside and outside the hashes can be assumed to be air @ S.T.P.

The resultant path direction change is due to that fact that the particle (marcher) is changing from one cartesian space to a different, non-congruent cartesian space (in this case the Y axis becomes skewed inside the hashes relative to the constantly scaled X axis which exisits both inside and outside the hashes). This situation is more like a Jacobian transformation on the individual's velocity vector than a wave refraction.

The reference to changes in medium is meant as a hypothetical construct, wherein one might visualize the individual as an electromagnetic wave. On that particular day, during that particular exercise, I happened to think how the situation is similar to wave refraction, and in order to represent this, it is necessary to arbitrarily choose a medium of incidence. I wasn't trying to represent the actual "mediums" through which the performer passes, but rather notice how the dot situation and the wave refraction are vaguely similar and how the area between hashes could be seen as an area with some refractive index. So, while a Jacobian transformation would be better suited for describing the situation, this was merely a re-telling of a random thought on a random day, on a random field, somewhere in Illinois. Gotta go...