Reverse mouthpipe

[PaNors77]

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So HOT water is best for silver horns? i never knew that, i was just playing it safe before so should i try that?

-Krazy Kyle with a K

WEll, if you use hot water on a laquered horn it tends(over time) to melt the laquer off. Silver won't melt off the the horn from hot water, lol. I like the hot water mainly for the inside of the horn, and heavy/fast coming from the shower nozzle. After brushing the tubes, tends to "knock" the loosened crap out of the horn, and anything greasy,etc. would get "melted" out if it's in there.

hmmm....soft scrub for the inside. Actually sometimes I just use a little ivory dish soap on the brushes too for the inside tubes. I don't really "polish" the outside of the brass slides tho either. Let go whatever colour they want,lol. Years ago I used brasso or other abrasive in that regard trying to get "shiny/cleaner" looking slides. Boy was that dumb. Wore the brass down on the outside of the tube changing the OD creating air leaks.lol.

Phil NOrris

Long Beach Junior Concert Band 74-77

Anaheim Kingsmen 77-78

Pro player today

Zoot Suit Revue (www.zootsuitrevue.com)

Platinum Groove(www.dmhenterprises.com/platinumgroove.html)

[Click]

I believe the reasons behind reverse lead pipes are that there is not anything to stop the air since the pipe continues inside the tuning slide.

[oldschoolVK]

Well... the question remains what kid of horn are you looking into buying?

I have a reversed lead pipe and a straight old standard lead pipe, both bachs. I love both my horns. Neither have tonality issues and both play very well.

The idea is that less AIR is lost from small gaps between the lead pipe and the tuning slide. But to be honest I do not think you will notice the difference.

My advice has been and will always be, go to the store go to another store, and another store... etc... until you find a horn that apeals to you!! Try horns multiple times.

Pick horns aren't like picking your nose... you do have a choice!  

Cullen

Kyle,

if you want to try a reverse lead, try my 1968 Schilke B3. It's a .463 (Schilke considers that a large bore, however Kanstul makes a horn with a .470) It's very free-blowing and open.

Recently, I have played Getzen and found it to be a very nice horn that slots easily. Ask Brock about his. My friend Larry (outstanding lead player in Virginia) swears by his Bach Strad 72/25. I also recently played a Kanstul Chicago 1001 which is exactly like my old Benge 3X. It is a MLP (.464) and plays nicely.

Ask Dan Z for his thoughts, as he knows your playing abilities.

Try many horns, take your teacher with you, or at least someone whose opinion you trust. don't keep swapping mouthpieces, just horns. Warm up and do your normal routine. Don't try to play high notes until you are warm. Take some music with you, like your Arban's book.

Make an appointment at Kanstul to try out their line of trumpets. You really should not overlook them.

Good Luck!

Charles

[kalijah]

Phil wrote;

I've been told tho (by the manufacturers) that it's supposed to cut down on air turbulence, that you supposedly get with a regular slide with the tube edge up the leadpipe

and Screamer wrote:

The idea is that less AIR is lost from small gaps between the lead pipe and the tuning slide.

and Click wrote:

I believe the reasons behind reverse lead pipes are that there is not anything to stop the air since the pipe continues inside the tuning slide.

Your conclusions are not correct. Air flow inside the horn is imaterial and not of significance. You are mistaken in your ideas that the tubing of a brass instrument is for air flow, it is not. Air flow is a consequence of the system but it is not the goal once the air has crossed the apeture and entered the mouthpiece. The purpose of tubing in a brass instrument is to provide an enclosed resonant chamber for the standing waves in the horn. Those standing wave resonant frequencies are determined by the length of the horn.

Brass instruments are designed at various tapers from the throat to the bell. Most instruments are cylindrical (no taper) at the valve section which is required in that area for the valves and the valve slides. (It would be impossible to build tapered slides). Then the taper (conical) continues from the valves to the bell.

Resonant energy is stored in the standing waves of a horn. In a perfectly cylindrical horn the standing waves are well defined (good "slotting", as you all say), but the projection is poor, that is to say, energy leaves the system at a slow rate. In a widely tapered horn the resonant energy escapes very quickly but tapering makes the standing waves less defined and less stable.

To sustain a tone in the cylindrical (non-tapered) instrument, in which energy exits slowly, only a small rate of energy input is required to sustain a given level of resonance energy inside the horn. The energy source is the air (velocity x pressure) applied.

Conversely in the tapered horn, where the energy exits faster, more power input is required to sustain a level of stored energy in the resonant column.

Considering the formula: (sorry for the algebra here)

W = V x P

Where W is power, V is air velocity and P is air pressure.

If we hold pressure P as constant; For an increase in Power W, V must be increased. And since the players percieved air resistance is the ratio of air velocity and pressure, the tapered horn would have less resistance (freer blowing).

Thus the tapered horn would require more energy in, project more energy out and would have less air resistance. But only at the cost of poorer defined resonances, (or slots)

How does this relate to the reverse lead pipe, you ask?

The normal trumpet tapers from small to large in 2 places, in the lead pipe and in the bell pipe. By building a reversed tuning slide on the front end, the lead pipe can continue its taper for a few more inches before settling into the cylindrical section. This makes the horn more tapered than a horn without the RLP. And as I explained before the more tapered horn will project more but at the cost of more energy input required and poorer resonance. (probably poorer intonation and less accurate tuning)

Be aware that bore size is related to the same argument as well, and has nothing to do with air resistance inside the horn because of the larger tubing. A larger bore horn at the valve section (where it is measured) will alow a more tapered instrument and the above applies.

Any questions?

Darryl Jones

[brassguymike]

Any questions?

Yeah, got any Aspirin?

You are correct about the horn being filled with vibrations and not air. That is always a big misconception with wind instruments. Reminds me of the old Arnold Jacob's interview where he was asked about how much air (wind) the tuba takes. He talked about filling the horn with vibrations, where the instrument asks like a large megaphone and picks up a vibration and enlarges it, gives it color and characteristic sound. Breath is used only as a motor force for vibration of the embouchure.

As for your whole physics equation, I understand it but only on an elementary level. You remind me of my caption head Dean Musson and his doctoral studies of the efficiency of sound travel by brass instruments in a free field environment. Get him talking about this stuff and he quickly looses me.

Edited January 24, 2003 by brassguymike

[impulsehorns]

Kyle,

Trumpets and trumpet playing (IMHO) have no hard and fast rules, So much is dependant your own physical make-up. Also the style and demands of your own playing will dictate what type of horn you need to meet flexibility,slotting,range and tone quality demands. A player doing mostly classical work will want something compleatly different from someone who plays like Miles. Being primarily a jazz player, I've always found Bachs to slot the intervals too hard for me, I like a more forgiving horn. I've tryed and LOVED Flip Oaks "Wild Thing" for many different styles, the only thing about that horn is, it doesn't blend well in a section situation, It's a phenominal solo instrument. There are only a choosen few who have managed to play all styles on a professional level, but those who do use separate set-ups for those needs (horns and mouthpieces). A Bach Stradivarius is a good, safe trumpet and most are of high quality. It's definately common enough to blend well in all situations. Make sure you get your mouthpiece fitted to that instrument (check the gap) If you'r going to run hot water through it, make sure to blow a good amount of valve oil throughout the horn to keep the brass protected. I hope this helps, I'm gonna miss you this season.

Dan Zeilinger

Caption Head, Arranger

Impulse

[DoubleHighEZ]

I've tryed and LOVED Flip Oaks "Wild Thing" for many different styles, the only thing about that horn is, it doesn't blend well in a section situation, It's a phenominal solo instrument.

Dan,

I'm curious as to how long you had been on the Wild Thing when you played it in a sectional setting? It took me a while to get used to the intonation of the horn, and the most noticeably different way the horn played. But once I did, I had no problem playing in a section.

[impulsehorns]

Actually, The section aspect of the horn was reported by the Disneyland trumpet section when Flip sent one to them to try-out. It wasn't the intonation that was the problem, it was that it's sound was so unique, it didn't blend well. It's the same reason you don't see a whole lot of Monets in pro sections. Flip Oaks is a dear friend of mine, and I endorse the horn whole heartedly. I even give an endorsement his website.

Take Care

Dan Zeilinger

Impulse

Head horn caption/arranger