Mixing keys in brass instruments...

[84BDsop]

Most musical ensembles (Orchestras, Wind Ensembles, Jazz Bands) are made up of many different keyed instruments.

Very true....but mixing a Bb brass and a woodwind or string in a different key is different than mixing different keys in brass.

Tonal Quality is the most important factor in producing good intonation. Good TQ comes from highly skilled musicians playing on quality instruments.

Again, very true....I'm tryign to find ways to minimize the wworklpad ont he musician, tho. They shouldn't have to fight the key differance any more than necessary.

BTW, the Hit Men play Bb trumpets and G everything else, but that's not by choice it's necessity.

David

OK....HERE'S an example of what I;m looking for...and it's even in our idiom!!

When you assign parts, do you make ANY attempt to segregate the instrumental keys by teh part beign played....like Gs on 1st sop and Bbs on 2nd??

[Shadow_7]

When you assign parts, do you make ANY attempt to segregate the instrumental keys by teh part beign played....like Gs on 1st sop and Bbs on 2nd??

Given that most corps (post jr. corps days) don't own a homogenous line to start with, you're probably not gonna run into any more issues than anyone else. If you can keep the same brand, key, model of horns per section or at least per part that would probably be better as far as intonation goes. It may not be for the color of sound you're wanting.

Most corps I've been in (post jr corps) own a pluthera of scraps. With as much as 1/3rd or more of the corps owning (or borrowing) the horns they're using. Few if any match key, manufacturer, and model. Even those that do match might be made in different countries these days.

The main thing is to have written parts that are readable for those that can read music. i.e. Don't have to transpose, don't have to read that other not quite as familiar clef, don't have to do funky key signature things to get the proper translation of accidentals for the current clef. Other than that, most things work themselves out with familiarity with the horn, group, and music. That's why many corps spend ten months on only ten minutes worth of music. Segregation of keys is more of a convienence of the composer and printer there of, than anything else.

Ultimately you want everyone in the same key, if only to maintain your and theirs sanity. And maybe a save a rainforest or two in the process.

[Periphery]

Very true....but mixing a Bb brass and a woodwind or string in a different key is different than mixing different keys in brass.

Orchestral brass do not have matching keyed instruments.

Brass sections will have Bb, C, D, A, F, and Eb instruments on stage and will use whatever they need. Trumpets will frequently have two on Bb and one on C, as it is a personal preference. If a Bb part "lays better" on a C horn, for whatever reason, the player will just play C and transpose at sight. Our section does this quite a bit. Our principal trumpeter went to Juilliard at a time when the default trumpet to come out of the bag was the C, always. She might whip out the Bb on a C part once in a while. Our 2nd and 3rd guys default to Bb and use C when they need or want to.

Old bass trombones were built in G and had no rotor . . . just a very long hand slide . . . and play just fine with the Bb tenors that they were built to join on stage.

I play my little F bass tuba when that particular timbre is needed, not because it is a "high range" instrument. Sometimes I end up having to play it in its very uncomfortable and awkward low register for hours at a time because that is the sound that I feel is needed. (I could just use a very small CC, but do not own one.) I use Eb on occasion. My main horn is a contrabass tuba pitched in CC and is very large. I switch keys of horns back and forth all of the time. I frequently have to play in the stratosphere on my large contrabass tuba.

When needed, the tenors will switch to altos (in Eb).

The horns are constantly switching between the Bb and F sides of their instruments (and they are totally separate horns that happen to share a leadpipe and a bell, in case you have not had the opportunity to take one apart, which many here have not had the chance to do).

On the Beatles Medley that we played on our last subscription Pops program, one tune had us playing at the same time:

A piccolo trumpet

D trumpet

Bb trumpet

Bb/high F descant horn

F/Bb horn

F/Bb horn

F/Bb horn

Eb alto trombone

Bb tenor trombone

Bb bass trombone

CC tuba

This is pretty close to normal, which is:

C or Bb trumpet

C or Bb trumpet

Bb or C trumpet

F/Bb horn

F/Bb horn

F/Bb horn

F/Bb horn

Bb tenor trombone

Bb tenor trombone

Bb bass trombone

CC or F tuba

THAT is the norm in most symphony orchestras.

The fear of pitch problems from mixing keys is born of teachers that do not hear the out of tune notes on matched brasses and think that you only tune the big slide. It is a serious misnomer. Out of tune is out of tune, regardless of matched or mismatched keys. In tune is in tune. A player who is unable to play in tune in an ensemble on an odd horn that has fairly decent pitch will not be any more successful with that ensemble when given a "matched" instrument to play.

Edited December 18, 2006 by Periphery

[ravedodger]

The fear of pitch problems from mixing keys is born of teachers that do not hear the out of tune notes on matched brasses and think that you only tune the big slide. It is a serious misnomer. Out of tune is out of tune, regardless of matched or mismatched keys. In tune is in tune. A player who is unable to play in tune in an ensemble on an odd horn that has fairly decent pitch will not be any more successful with that ensemble when given a "matched" instrument to play.

I think in drum corps, where there are many more amatuers, that time is a huge factor, thus making matched key instruments more efficient. Though this doesn't exactly help the mellos if you're running a G line. The F mellos set inside a Bb line is obviously more ideal since the alto voice typically dwells around the fourth and fifth of a key anyway.

Sam, I understand what you're talking about having the leads on Bb and lowers on G. This is somewhat similar to a real horn section, where the section is split between first and third horns then second and fourth horns. This is actually an antiquated practice that was needed in the natural horn days. The key of the horn was set by using a particular crook. The section would be split as already mentioned. For example, first and third would be in Bb and second and fourth would be in F.

I was just listening to the Brass Theater III cd track 20, the Selections from ET. I heard some incredible playing and some very nice arranging--but one thing stuck out like a sore thumb. The melody dropped an interval of a third or fourth but ended terribly flat. I'm thinking the root was concert F, since it's a toughy everywhere I've been. The incredible thing is that the line stayed in tune within, but not with the interval.

Edited December 19, 2006 by ravedodger

[Periphery]

I think in drum corps, where there are many more amatuers, that time is a huge factor, thus making matched key instruments more efficient. Though this doesn't exactly help the mellos if you're running a G line. The F mellos set inside a Bb line is obviously more ideal since the alto voice typically dwells around the fourth and fifth of a key anyway.

Yeah, I know exactly what you are saying. I am just meaning that I have met instructors that were not all that concerned with intonation issues after the main slide was set. They blamed their inattention to real intonation training and work on fundamental breathing and tone production on G bugles. They pushed very hard for Bb/F band instruments. These lines still do not play really well in tune with one another. (HA HA HA HA! Am I BITTER?? Nah . . . )

Also, I had just come home from my favorite local Mexican place loaded to the gills with Margaritas!

[Martybucs]

The fear of pitch problems from mixing keys is born of teachers that do not hear the out of tune notes on matched brasses and think that you only tune the big slide. It is a serious misnomer. Out of tune is out of tune, regardless of matched or mismatched keys. In tune is in tune. A player who is unable to play in tune in an ensemble on an odd horn that has fairly decent pitch will not be any more successful with that ensemble when given a "matched" instrument to play.

Exactly, and it's not necessarily teachers that make this mistake of blaming the instrument for poor intonation. A lot of times it's the person playing next to you, (in drum corps, at least).

[ravedodger]

Exactly, and it's not necessarily teachers that make this mistake of blaming the instrument for poor intonation. A lot of times it's the person playing next to you, (in drum corps, at least).

I think we all agree.

[Eddie]

The Bb horns are going to produce a more rounded sound than the G horns. With that, you may find the Bb horns to be more balanced and better tuned in the lower registers. On the other hand, if all the G horns are assigned the 1st parts of the music, they may overplay the Bb brass parts unless you have them play at a lower dynamic marking.

This is just my opinion :)

[brassomaniac]

Had this problem last summer with a "tribute" group that was thrown together with 3 rehearsals.

I was just careful about the keys I chose to arrange in.

And I put all the G's together - 3rd sops, 2nd mellos and 3rd baris. (Bb's on the higher parts because it would place the G horns in a pretty uncomfortable range, the other way around)

I think that this did minimize the intonation challenges (and instructional/arrangement complications) within the sections, and I would likely do it the same again.

[tubajoe]

The fear of pitch problems from mixing keys is born of teachers that do not hear the out of tune notes on matched brasses and think that you only tune the big slide. It is a serious misnomer.

MAN I love talking about this stuff!

Great post Wade. I wholeheartedly agree...

I'd like to go beyond what your great post indicates and pose some issues in both directions.

There are indeed certain keys of horns that do compliment / work better with each other -- and as you said keys are selected almost specifically for timbre. ...and mismatched timbre can cause either percieved or actual mismatched intonation.

Again, while I absolutely agree with your statements, there is the physical fact that certain keys of instruments mesh well together.

As a rule (and remember every rule is broken often)

- Bb and Eb go together wonderfully (British Brass Band setup)

- Bb and F go together pretty well too.

- Eb and F only work together if on different instruments

- C and Bb only work if on different instruments (Russian 3rd trumpet parts notwithstanding!)

- C and F work so/so.

- Bb and G together is quite difficult.

Bb, Eb, F, and to a certain extent C, are all somewhat complimentary of each other. But G is a whole different animal...

One main point I'd like to add is that in Wade's explanation of orchestral sections (which is fairly correct for the US and Canada) while key is indeed different from section to section, the key is *almost* always the SAME WITHIN each section -- and to go a step further, in the higher-end ensembles, they will (just like a drum corps!) MATCH instrument makes (again, to a certain extent)

- Bone sections are often either a Bach section or a Edwards section (or Conn?).

- Trumpet sections are often either a Bach section or a Monet section. (and rarely do those ever mix)

- Horn sections are often a "Geyer wrap" section or are a Conn 8D section. (and right hand technique and/or on/off the leg may match)

- Trumpet sections sometimes use rotaries, and sometimes pistons, but when they switch, they all switch together.

- Tubas, well they are tubas :) but in multiples will, of course, do what they can to complement, as you do Wade, as I am sure you've done your share of Berlioz, Mendelssohn, Stravinsky etc etc! ;) As a Rudy, a Boosey, and a York are all quite different...

The same thing happens in other sections too... as there are schools of oboe playing (which is a major factor in their tonal approach) and sections tend to be one or the other... and in bass sections, type of bass bow used tends to match. Violin schooling (Moscow etc) tends to be similar. Timpani players usually play on a matched set of drums. etc etc.

The same reason is why a jazz trumpet section will play all on Bb trumpets. Why sax sections are Bb and Eb (and why they dont use the "melody" tenor in C anymore)

Tradition, yes. But also logic and physics.

Uniformity of equipment within certain sections is usually there to some extent in ideal situations, and as we said has the greatest effect on timbre, which in turn, does aid / affect intonation (or percieved intonation and/or balance.)

The main point being that it is ok to mix keys, but is BEST to match within each section whenever possible. ...as Bb and G instruments differ quite a bit (especially in trumpets and tubas)

Now to even go one step further... I completely agree with your statement of "Out of tune is out of tune, regardless of matched or mismatched keys. In tune is in tune." As THE maestro Bud said once: "He who comes in first is in tune."

HOWEVER, this does not discount the benefits of matched brasses, matched mouthpieces and even to the extent of matching tuning slide positions...

AS,

First the goal is to work making intonation an instinctual thing... elemental and organic. Singing.

MATCHED EQUIPMENT DOES NOT acoustically make a hornline more in tune... rather, it eliminates variables. ...which, psychologically can be an advantage to amateur/student (most drum corps) brass players. Meaning that, if two players are playing on the exact same axe, and they are out of tune with each other, it means that it is theoretically only the concept of the player what is not matching -- as the axe itself is not a factor in the equation. It also allows the instructor to control bad equipment choices (as in bad mouthpiece choices which is RAMPANT in drum corps, especially amongst self-taught wannabe upper lead players)

Sure, in tune is in tune, always. But matching equipment can help (and expedite) the process of teaching and learning that concept in a short amount of time.

You mention that the horn itself is practically NOT an issue in intonation. And I agree -- and THAT is the EXACT reason FOR matching the equipment.

This system, pioneered by Jack Meehan, Wayne Downey, and Jim McFarland in the late 70's (I think) is pure genius. It takes what orchestral sections and brass bands have done for years, and applied it to drum corps. On top of that, once a hornline is quite mature, it gives the line *however slight and controversial* the theoretic possibility of playing with temperaments, enharmonicity etc.

(...and is also a factor in why THAT brassline’s historical success and record, is absolutely untouchable by any other group thus far in the entire activity, period.)

Matched slides also is an easy way to "approximately" re-adjust an entire line at once (the horns, not the players!) when environmental conditions change.

Great stuff... I'm looking forward to this weekend, can ya tell???

BTW, I wanna see you blow away a viola section with that K-90!

peace

joe

Edited January 11, 2007 by tubajoe