Is a G hornline really louder?

[Jimisback]

You're right, the older recordings were pretty bad. The new ones are much much better. So they will apear louder. Recording levels differ from year to year as well as from corps to corps.

[Shadow_7]

Now granted most of you have probably put a lot more thought into this, and I'm doing this when its late and I'm tired. However, I've always felt that on most of the DVDs and recordings I've heard using the Bb horns have sounded louder than those using the G bugles. Now this might be because of different recording styles/whatever. Just an observation.

Not only does the quality of the recordings differ over the eras. But you must also consider that back in the day, those were 40 person hornlines. Where many are 70+ person hornlines on Bb's these days. And decent recordings will be normalized so it doesn't really matter who is louder because the media will be edited to make them equally loud. And then there's that amp issue.

[randomnoise]

Actually, very few top hornlines were in the 40s (at least in the DCI era). I remember people being amazed at how well the Kingsmen did in '74 with only 43 horns. My memory is of the top corps, perhaps there were more with hornlines in the 40s.

Hornlines have been over 60 since the early 80s. At DCI in 1986, the two smallest hornlines in Finals were the top 2 - SCV and BD with 62 each. That was also the year Cadets had 86 horns (and a very small guard).

[DrumCorpsLives]

Not exactly. A concert Bb is fingered open on a Bb horn. On a G bugle it's fingered 2nd or 2nd and 3rd for a minor 3rd above the tuning note. Not only do you have the extra minor 3rd tubing of the G horn, but you also have the length of the tubing for the valve(s). It's the same note, but you're on different partials. Unless of course you play the open Bb with 2nd and 3rd on the Bb horn to have equal lengths of tubing. Assuming it's played 2nd valve on the G bugle.

In the old days the G bugles were more conical and had larger bores. Not to mention thicker metals/plates and more tubing in general. But these days, the marching Bb brass have been redesigned to have similar traits. So the difference isn't what it once was. But there is still a difference.

Umm, your description of length of horn for a given pitch is confusing.

For a given pitch, regardless of sop or trumpet, it has to be the same length of tubing. So a concert Bb on either horn will go thru the same length of tubing to attain the same frequency (pitch). Does that fit with what you're saying? I think you've got a mistake there.

Regarding old G's being more conical, I don't think so; at least with my horns. I've got a bunch of circa '80's, '70's and '60's bugles as well as brand new bugles and there's no distinguishable difference. Maybe have to get the calipers out to really check. But all are cylindrical tubing up to the valves and then conical after the valves.

Not sure about your thicker metal for G's. That seems odd, but don't have time to check that.

And you're right on some of today's marching brass, some Kanstul trumpets seem to be much more conical with more bell flare than other trumpets.

[Bbwhat?]

Umm, your description of length of horn for a given pitch is confusing.

For a given pitch, regardless of sop or trumpet, it has to be the same length of tubing. So a concert Bb on either horn will go thru the same length of tubing to attain the same frequency (pitch). Does that fit with what you're saying? I think you've got a mistake there.

Regarding old G's being more conical, I don't think so; at least with my horns. I've got a bunch of circa '80's, '70's and '60's bugles as well as brand new bugles and there's no distinguishable difference. Maybe have to get the calipers out to really check. But all are cylindrical tubing up to the valves and then conical after the valves.

Not sure about your thicker metal for G's. That seems odd, but don't have time to check that.

And you're right on some of today's marching brass, some Kanstul trumpets seem to be much more conical with more bell flare than other trumpets.

I don't think the tubing has to be the same length. On a trumpet or soprano 3 valve, you can play a D, 1 & 3 valves in all registers, but you can't play the low D with just the first valve as you can on the stave and above the stave, you don't even need the valves. So I think the length of tubing regulates which partials you can sound, but there can be different lengths of tubing that can produce the same notes.

Conical usually refers to the tubing from the mouthpiece receiver to the valve section, not the bell taper as you describe above.

If you look at a conical instrument, the leadpipe is usually smaller than that of the equivalent cylindrical instrument, but it gets larger in diameter as you get to the valve section. In the valve section, I believe, the bore is the same for all 3 valves.

The bell section is usually larger coming out of the valve section and doesn't start the taper or flair until after the bow.

Bells are usually a fast taper, staying relatively tight and expanding at a faster taper towards the final flair or a slow taper, the bell starts to taper soon after the bow and continues til the final flair.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll be corrected shortly. :)

[Jomusichn]

It mostly the bore of the horn.

a Bb .470 bore trumpet can be just as loud as a soprano bugle in G.

[Martybucs]

It mostly the bore of the horn.

a Bb .470 bore trumpet can be just as loud as a soprano bugle in G.

Perhaps.

You would assume that a large bore horn would be louder since it can allow more air to pass. However, there are so many more variables, the most important of which is the player.

I think a happy medium has to be reached because there is, as in most things, an aspect of the law of diminishing returns at work here.

Filling a large bore horn, especially a trumpet or soprano, with the air required to produce a loud volume and notes in the upper register, where, typically, a certain amount of resistance is desirable, is extremely hard work for the player. This in mind, will they be as loud at the end of the show?

My G bugle is a DEG .468 and my trumpet is a .463, a mere .005 of an inch is the difference. I don't really notice a difference when playing either though. However, I think the DEG can be played louder. I borrowed a Martin Committee trumpet, (red!) that has a .470 bore. Very nice low register. However, anything over high C was very demanding at loud volumes. I hit a G above high C that was really loud, but much harder to sustain than on my Yamaha or the equivalent note on the DEG. I hit a double C that was also pretty loud, but again very hard to sustain. My point being, that, ultimately the large bore horn won't be louder if you can't sustain the sound or if the physical cost is too high. I realize those notes are extreme and don't come up much in regular playing, but they kind of give you an accelerated feel as to how the horn will perform over a longer period of playing.

Again, balance has to be found. If you're playing in the line and can't lay out like a soloist or have time to switch or pivot to an upper register embouchure, you need a horn that will match how you play and I think for most, that is a medium bore.

That said, on large bore horns, most successful players compensate by using a mouthpiece that gives them the support and resistance they need to make the larger bore work for them. This is not a cheat or a bad thing. It's just a matter of an experienced player knowing that they need to find balance.

Naturally, as a soprano/trumpet I'm talking upper register issues. Not sure the same problems are experienced on mid and low voices.

[ContraBuddy]

The difference is the key the horns are in, not the notes that you playing. a Bb is a Bb. (length determines pitch) G bugle is a longer lower voiced horn then the Bb trumpet. The lower the pit the further it carries. (Think parade as a band comes toward you hear the bass drums first). So since bugles are in a lower key the sound carries more then the higher pitched Bb horns.

As a contra player, I really have to disagree with this. We've got the lowest pitch on the field, and even if we're right up front, the sops cut right thru us.

I don't know ALL the technical stuff, but I do know that a lower pitch produces wider, and slower soundwaves, and a high pitch produces narrower and faster soundwaves. And, those fast, narrow soundwaves from a sop carry alot further than a contra does.

What we hear is not just a matter of volume, but also a matter of the kind of sound. The size of the horn will have an effect, tho. All of us who make up "The Foundatation" of a corps (aka Contra Line) knows that a big, ol K-90 will put out alot more sound (and better sound) than a little DEG or especially an Olds V/R contra. But, even if you put a big contra line on the field with a little sop line, who's going to be heard more clearly and from further away?

Bill

[camel lips]

Ok,,I have had some things to experiment with lately and have come to this conclusion.

Little seems to be lost on the low brass side of things when going to Bb.Its mostly High Brass Trumpets.

Bb Trumpets up close in horn arch can be just as loud as a G bugle soprano

G bugles on the other hand project MUCH louder at distances.Bb Trumpets sound gets very thin at distances.

Its not so much a Issue with bore size as it bore construction and bell construction..

G Bugle soprano wins

[BigLou]

Sorry Chris I had to use your post (see below) If I could suggest listen to the horn lines that went from G to Bb. As an example the I remember the last year the Cabs used G bugles. When they went to Bb horns there show just did not have that rich fullness of sound that they had when they used G bugles. I would like to hear from the corps that went Bb and ask if there is a difference of sound.

Really?

I don't know Physics at all, but after 30+ years standing in front of hornlines (most of it as an instructor), it's the upper brass that are louder to my ears - not the low guys. Is that because the sound is more focused?

Ahh you never were in front of me hahaha

I do not have any scientific data, but when I stand in front of an arc, G and Bb are both loud. When I am at the top of the stands, I hear the Gs better. That leads me to believe that Gs project more.

Interesting discussion. I am currently teaching a line that is mixed Bb and G. No real insight, other than I like trumpets better than bugles for intonation. Low brass, I prefer Gs because they have better presence. Mellophones - no real difference (F or G - only a M2 apart).

My other two lines are all Gs and they have a great presence (but they also play better in tune, which is also VERY important in your overall sound).

Key of the music you play is definitely important as well. But so is experience level. The truly excellent players - whatever instrument they play rings out strong. Of course, a better instrument plays better notes.