Tez

I think we are talking about two completely different things in this thread. Those of us who are completely against synth bass, aren't necessarily anti-electronics. We just absolutely despise one extremely offensive and tasteless use of electronics that 90% of the corps seem to be using. In all of the situations quoted above, and in other electronic music mentioned in this thread (Reich, Adams, etc...) the same electronic sound that attempts to emulate and blend with an acoustic sound does not keep popping up over, and over. The synth bass is the issue..... not electronics. And even synth bass alone isn't really a problem. It is only when it is used to play along with the brass line as if it is part of the brass line that I think so many people have a major, major problem with. This is an extremely poor use of electronics, and not something you would ever hear from an established well-known composer. And the other issue I must bring up is musical style and genre. In all of the above mentioned examples of great modern composers using electronics.... the style of music is new and fresh, where it is appropriate to introduce new timbres to the established ensemble. But when SCV played an extremely "close to the original" adaptation of Appalachian Spring a few years ago, yet added an extremely artificial synth bass to the big brass impacts..... how does that make any sense whatsoever? If you are going to use electronics in creative and artistic ways... do it. Synth bass is neither creative nor artistic... especially when marching bands have been doing it for years (which is why I think all of the staffs are in the habit of using it).

Yes..... this post says it all. I know that quality of sound can be very subjective..... but let's be honest... if you prefer the sound of a hornline with bass synth added over one with a pure brass timbre, I must question your aesthetic attraction to drum and bugle corps in the first place. Why is drum corps music special of not for acoustic brass and percussion?

The difference in popular music is that all of the sounds are electric in some way. When you go to a modern pop music concert, very little of what you hear is actually coming from the instruments/singers themselves. It's all coming from giant speaker stacks and balanced and blended by a sound engineer. The same obviously applies to a professionally produced recording. You will never be able to achieve this blend in drum corps until all the instruments are amplified. When this happens, drum corps will lose what I believe is the most unique musical aspect of the activity..... the glorious acoustic sound. This sets them apart from all other music and I truly think the majority of fans really enjoy the purely acoustic sound over anything else. Why do you think it's still so popular to watch the horn lines warm-up in the lot?

How are synths not "legal" in the symphony orchestra? Of course they are... it's just the composers/arrangers choose not to use them in horribly tasteless ways. I have never once heard an orchestra, wind ensemble, big band, pit orchestra, brass band, percussion ensemble, etc.... use bass synth in the way that 90% of the drum corps are using them.... that is to "enhance" the bottom end using a non-discript low frequency sound. Why don't these others use synth in that way?.... because the electronic sound, no matter how well "balanced" it is, will never blend with an acoustic ensemble. Yes, jazz big bands very often use amplified bass..... but even here, the bass does not play the same parts as the winds, and does not sustain big chords like the winds do. It remains a separate entity. I have no problem with electronics used for sound effects, or other musical textures that are distinct from the acoustic instruments.... but when nearly every corps uses the synth bass to enhance the bottom end of the brass sound, it really becomes cheap, boring, and completely un-effective. Carolina Crown has proven this year that the best brass sound needs no enhancement, so what are the others thinking?

I think Shanefield's (sp?) writing is ok for the most part... it just seems like 90% of the Cavalier's shows the past three years have been transitions. The music is always "going somewhere," but we never get there.... or at least don't stay there for too long.

Did Potter just say "Five dot one surround?"

I would think that WAAAYYYY more people are familiar with the promenade melody than Malaguena. Pictures is one of the most famous pieces of music of all time.

That would go completely against the original, though.

If you somewhow have this ability for only $300, then please contact DCI!

These kind of threads pop out so often, and have been for so many years....... I'm still trying to figure out why DCI needs saving. Yes many corps have folded over the years..... and two just this summer have cancelled their tour, but most of the evidence I have seen lately points toward the organization as a whole remaining very strong. Hasn't DCI announced that their financial situation is good and very stable for the past several years? What is causing the alarm? Two corps that were either not properly run or got screwed over by a third party points doom for the rest of the corps? I don't think so. 1A - what evidence do you have for this? In my opinion, the national touring model is actually keeping the activity viable. With the current "demand" for drum corps, their are only a certain amount of shows that can happen.... spreading them out around the country to reach the largest audience possible makes the most sense. 1B - This is how it works now.... there are placement awards. 2 - This really is not a suggestion.... how do you make starting a corps cheaper? 3 - This is obviously a cmplex issue. Will more advertising actually bring more fans, or will it be wasted money? If you increase the price will less people attend? Each show in this regard needs to be treated differently and micromanaged with smart business sense to get the largest audience possible. 4 - I'm not sure many kids would go for this... maybe a few. But college aged kids probably would be a little too busy for year-round drum corps. This activity is a mjor commitment... we need an off-season. 5 - I agree this could improve DCI, but in a world where so much of the income comes straight from the participants, I'm not sure they would agree to it. Imagine if the NFL asked their players to pay to play football. You think they would ever listen to a word Goodell said then? (as if they even do now) I know this post means well, but I think alarmist notions only increase negativity around the activity and can sometimes do more harm than good. If I was a new DCI parent just getting on DCP to see what's up, I may think that the activity is dying a slow death and wonder what I have gotten my child into. Or worse, what may prospective parents/marchers think if they keep seeing this kind of stuff? DCI in its current state is very stable and possibly just needs some tweaking.... not a complete overhaul of operations. I truly feel like the people in charge are working as hard as they can to keep the activity sustainable for a long time.

Just one side note here about judging percussion........ When the drum judge is on the field, he always hears phasing problems because of sound delays, so I think they are used to pretty much ignoring them. Also, in "Fanfare," unless you are directly on the 50 yard line, there will be little phasing problems even if it is played perfectly. But it does seem, even on videos (which are alsways on the 50), there is always a few spots the percussion don't line up. I am just glad the drum judge (and other music judges) are giving them credit for the difficulty, and not docking them too much for the dirt. We'll see if that keeps up. Like I have said before, having the drums spread that far is definitely worth a little dirt because it's a one-of-a-kind effect you could only experience in drum corps. I hope they leave it as is even if it is impossible to get perfectly clean.

Actually, the fact that the overall level is softer probably means that the audio is of higher quality..... it is much more dynamic than the massively compressed cam-corder videos we see on youtube. Those don't sound better... they are just compressed. or worse, have automatic gain control so all the levels are equal. Basically, through eletronics, those devises squish all the sound into a very narrow dynamic range, then raise the entire thing to max volume. That's why even the soft parts seem loud.... not how it should be. The "problem" is on your end. You simply don't have enough power on your amplifier. You say you have expensive speakers, but what is their wattage output? I have two 200 watt speakers, and have never had a problem with fan network videos being too soft. I always have more head room and can turn them up into "ear pain" level.

I think Zildjian found their new ad.

Yes, of course I know it's from the symphony.... but they are definitely playing up the "Jaws" relationship because of the theme of the show.

You know, Crown's brass line also plays just a bit too loud. It's like they're trying too hard to entertain people.

Here is my review of the show posted over in the Review forum: Tez's DCI Louisville Review If anyone has any specific questions from tonight, I will try to answer them.

It's been a while since I have posted, but I attended the Louisville show tonight and here is my take: My seats were on side A, 45 yard line, about 30 rows up (great for a good musical and visual read). Blue Stars - They had an enjoyable program and performance to start out this show..... very familiar music, and some nice features for the different sections. I like how they play on the "Jaws" sounding theme to the beginning of the 4th mvt. of New World. I also really enjoyed the end of their show with the corps spread over 60-70 yeards. The Myron drill does seem very difficult, but I think it fits the theme very well and I don't think it is too hard to be clean by finals. I found Blue Stars' level of performance to be decent, just not incredible. I think they will end up around the same place as last year. Bluecoats - As others have said, this group is executing at a very high level for this time of year. The visuals are especially impressive with the amount of polish and cordination. I think some of the electronics they add to the show are effective... like some of the pseudo-rock grooves, there just may be too many, and the volume level of the amps were too high. A couple that I brought with me to the show who have never seen drum corps before commented that they thought electronics in general "cheapened" (their word, not mine)the experience. Yes other corps used them, but I thought the Bluecoats were the most abusive. I remember their drum line being really solid as well as their reliable clean brass sound. I look forward to where this show can go, as I'm sure much will be added with the level they are executing at right now. Carolina Crown - In no way do I have any corps affiliation or bias toward one group over any other, but I must say that I thought Crown was significantly better than all the other corps tonight (and that is something with two of the "big 3" at the show)...... Definetly not in cleanliness, but in demand, maturity of show design, and overall general effect. This brass section truly is playing at another level right now. The professionalism was evident from their first note. The show is simply full of drama.. it has many high points, from the frenetic pace (both musically and visually) of the opener, to the subtle and sparse quiet sections that seem to only build the tension more. The release of this tension about 3/4ths of the way through with the full statement of "Fanfare," I think will go down as one of the defining moments in drum corps history when it's all said and done. I truly believe that. Contrary to what some others have said, the various timpani and concert bass drums around the field's exterior are extremely effective, and I really hope they don't nerf this section. The "surround sound" feel it gives to the sound at these points is something I've never experienced, and you truly must hear it live to appreciate what they are attempting. Yes, the show is dirty... probably only cleaner than Blue Stars tonight, and there are some timing issues with the percussion and even some in the front ensemble... but it really takes some onions (if you know what I mean) to even attempt what they are doing.... and I think they just might pull it off. I hope the judges agree and Crown can ride this show to their first championship in August. Spectacular performance... the only corps tonight that received a standing ovation from literally everyone that I could see. Cadets - They had a very solid performance, and seem to be the only corps that was clean in all captions (well, maybe Bluecoats were too). The Christmas music is actually refreshing when most other corps play music that many fans are unfamiliar with. I love Bocook's arranging style and Sacktig's drill, and they have created another powerhouse of a show. Their level of cleanliness was so high tonight, I hope they don't run out of room to make the show better (esp. with Crown cleaning their show)...... I'm sure they won't though, and the real ending will help lots. Also, I must say, the chunk that they chopped out of the swing section in Jingle Bells really took some of the exitement away from that part in my opinion. All of the rapid harmonic modulations, and increases in intensity seem to come out of nowhere instead of the more natural build up they had in some of the early recordings I heard. I think in its original form, that section would get a much bigger pay off than what they are offering now. Other than that, I thought everything else was very effective. Killer drum line, and very loud brass. Cavaliers - This show was better than what I was lead to believe after reading some reviews of last night's performance. I thought their level of execution was just below Cadets and Bluecoats, and the brass was decently loud. They still had that "Cavaliers" sound too. I did hear some timing issues in the front ensemble, but nothing that can't be addressed with time. The show was a little scattered with a lack of any apparent flow, at least to me. Even if I don't understand the specific story they are trying to portray (which I rarely do for any corps other that PR '08), I still like to be able to follow the emotional/dramatic journey of the musical and visual content. I could not do this here, at least not on the level of the other corps tonight. I think their execution will keep them near the top competively, but audiences may not react to this show as they have with several other Cavaliers shows of the past. Overall, a great night for drum corps in Louisville. Here are some of my personal placements for tonight..... I would consider myself very knowledgeable about music in general.. somewhat knowledgeable about visual... and a complete novice when it comes to colorguard. Overall Effect: 1.Crown 2.Cadets 3.Bluecoats 4.Blue Satrs 5.Cavaliers Visual 1.Cadets 2.Bluecoats 3.Cavaliers 4.Crown 5.Blue Stars Brass 1.Crown 2.Cadets 3.Bluecoats 4.Cavaliers 5.Blue Stars Percussion 1.Cadets 2.Bluecoats 3.Cavaliers 4.Blue Stars 5.Crown Overall Placement: 1.Crown 2.Cadets 3.Bluecoats 4.Cavaliers 5.Blue Stars I think the judges will put Crown in 3rd, or maybe even 4th based on their level of dirt, but in my book, I'll take a dirty demanding show, over something a little more "status quo."

You may be correct in that they did not award an actual guard trophy that year.... I don't know the details. But every time here on DCP we begin the topic of caption awards through the DCI era.... everyone usually agrees that BD won in 1982.... so yeah... there's my "proof"..... the old reliable DCP. Anyone else want to weigh in?

Honestly, I thought the attendance on Friday (Semis) was way up over last year. I saw very few open seats in between the 20s in the lower sections. Also, I thought the crowd was very responsive.... almost too much so in some cases. To me, the worst thing about experiencing drum corps live is that I feel like I miss so much of each show because of forced/over exuberant fan reactions around me at the most random points in shows....... Cheering/applause in between pieces and at then end of the show is fine... but for every single successful rifle/sabre catch..... a bit much.

The Blue Devils won Colorguard in: 1982 1984 1986 1990 1992 1995 1997 1998 1999 2001 2003 2006 2008 2009 2010 2011 By my count, that is 16. It's amazing that of the 3 major caption awards, this is the one most dominated by the "Big 3." Collectively they have won every single Guard trophy since Phantom Regiment in 1988.

Here are some random stats if anyone is interested. (for entertainment purposes only, of course) Crown wins their second brass trophy, and second caption award of any kind. The Blue Devils win their 16th Colorguard trophy (10 more than any other corps), and currently have a 4 year winning streak in that caption. They have also won 5 out of the last 6. The Cavaliers win their 6th percussion trophy, tying the Cadets for 3rd all time. They are also the first non-BD/Regiment corps to win percussion since 2005. Cadets win their 10th overall title, and 21st top 3 finish, tying SCV for second most total medals. The Blue Devils finish 2nd for the 8th time, breaking a tie with SCV for most silvers. This is the Blue Devil's 29th top 3 finish (out of 40 DCI championships) The Cavaliers finish 3rd for the 7th time, just one behind BD and SCV for most bronze medals all time. This is their 18th top 3 finish. The "Big 3" (Blue Devils, Cadets, and Cavaliers) have now finished 1-2-3 seven times (1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2011). Carolina Crown has now finished in the top 4 for four straight years.... a feat only 7 other corps (Blue Devils, Cadets, Cavaliers, SCV, Phantom, Madison, Star) have completed.

They show all of the top 15.

In my opinion.... the BK kids marching/playing BD's show would actually score lower than the current 9th-10th place slot they are sitting it. The show (in my opinion) would be a little above their heads, and thus be too dirty to score well. On the other hand, I think BD's kids could still be in the top 5 with BK's show, but probably not win. They would max out the performance levels too quickly to be able to compete with the more complex shows of Cadets/Cavaliers/possibly Crown. Therefore, by switching shows, I think both corps would actually score lower. The staffs and designers at each of the corps know what they are doing. They create a show which is appropriate for their expected talent level.

Yes, mostly because of the bolded part. They should strive to be like them in level of performance of course, but there is nothing wrong with maintaining their identity. Crown and Bluecoats have reached the upper echelon by maintaining their own identities, so others can do it as well. What's more, just take each of the "big 3"..... they each have an extremely identifiable style from each other. A corps does not have to strive be "exactly like one of them" to win. Phantom proved this in 2008. The Cadets may be able to win it this year with a show that is completely different from the past 2 Blue Devils championship shows.

It's pretty obvious..... Since the Cadets/Blue Devils/Cavaliers and the other top corps have a recent history of excellence and finishing at the top of the activity every single year, they attract the most talented people to become members. I would bet if you took the time to listen to every single member of the Blue Knights' brass line play their instrument solo, and then did the same for the Blue Devils... the collective difference would be pretty huge in quality of sound, musicality, technique, etc.... No, I'm not saying BK does not have some very talented members, just as a whole, the talent level is consistently at the top for the best groups. There is only a finite number of really outstanding musicians willing to participate in drum corps.... not near enough to go around for that many corps. I would assume the same goes for colorguard. Also, the top corps' staff know exactly how to design a show that can get maxed out score wise by championships. Other staffs struggle to do this, and their jobs are made more difficult by the lower talent levels. In my own opinion, Crown possibly has as much talent as the big 3 (based on my own observations of their performance levels), but they have yet to write a show that can max out the sheets like the big 3.