Penn State

Penn State's thoughts and prayers are with the Hokie nation. The Blue Band's tought's and prayers are also with the Marching Virginians. I wanted to share this with all, it's a video on Youtube of the Blue/White game VT tribute: "We Are...All Hokies" God Bless

My apologies if someone did mention this. Bb baritone written on treblbe clef is one step higher than the concert pitch. For example, a G written for Bb treble baritone is a Concert F. Same relationship the Bb trumpet has with the concert pitch instrument

double post, sorry

second episode is available on ipod now. Traditional and bell front mellos are compared (King bugles are mentioned!) with a good Kenton recording. Very interesting, it was mentioned that the Kenton mellophonium pieces influenced how mello parts are written for drum corps. its another good episode. Enjoy!

double post <**> .....deleted it

I agree, most corps instruments are in use during the winter months. I do though feel alot of high school's marching brass instruments are collecting dust during the 'non-marching' band season. Why couldn't it be an etxtra curricular activity at the schools for these kids? Isn't that the way indoor drumline works? I really don't know, curous though B)

Al Perkins (owner of www.alsmiddlebrasspages.com/mellophone ), Scooter Pirtle (owner of www.middlehornleader.com) and Mark Taylor, Jazz hornist are producing podcasts about the mellophone. The first epsiode ia available now at the mellocast website: http://www.mellocast.com The intent is to have the show eventually available on iTUNES. It includes a very cool mellophone feature song from Don Elliot. Check it out. Hope you will enjoy it. Al is encouraging questions that can be used for future episodes. IMHO the Don Elliot recording alone makes it worth listening too.

The more tumpet like the mouthpiece is, the brighter, more trumpet like your sound will be. The 'mello' cup pieces will give you a 'truer' mello sound but will still be on the bright side. Tenor /alto horn and true mellophone mouthpieces were made for these horns. You'll get a full mello sound. Denis Wick: Tenor Horn 2 (Gold) Code:DW4883-2 Diameter:30.63 mm Cup Diameter:19.00 mm Rim Width:5.82 mm Bore Size:5.20 mm Back Bore:V-type Tenor Horn 3 (Gold) Code:DW4883-3 Diameter:30.63 mm Cup Diameter:18.50 mm Rim Width:6.07 mm Bore Size:5.20 mm Back Bore:V-type Tenor Horn 5 (Gold) Code:DW4883-5 Diameter:30.20 mm Cup Diameter:17.50 mm Rim Width:6.35 mm Bore Size:5.20 mm Back Bore:Open-V Description: All Denis Wick tenor (alto) horn mouthpieces use deep funnel cups for maximum quality of tone and flexibility with matched throats and backbores for perfect intonation http://www.deniswick.com/dw_leaflet_06.pdf Rai-mello, sent ya a pm

It is a very cool device,, I just don't feel it belongs in drum corps.

IMO, if ya want a guitar get a guitar not an f'in conveter for a trumpet player to sound like a guitar when amped. <**>

Great post, agree 100%!

when you say gold, do you mean gold plated or clear laquered brass?

Personally, I have to respectfully disagree. I have found the Yamaha bari very free blowing. Thw King on the other hand was very stuffy. Of course all marching baritones will feel 'stuffy' compared to a concert wrap. A tighter wrap is the only way it can be lugged around on the field in a bell front/marching wrap

The Dynasty 4 valve (4/4) middle F is around 30 cents flat when the Bb bellow and above it are in tune. The 201 does not have this problem, when the Bb are in tune the middle F is about 5 cents sharp. I don't like the valve placement on this horn, very uncomfortable. I contacted Yamaha about the 202, here is an excerpt of their response: "As far as the 202 tuba; we tested it for two whole DCI summers with the Cavaliers and Cadets before we launched the product. Our goal was to provide a light instrument, but with incredible projection and sound. Therefore, the body and wrap itself is actually still at 4/4 size instrument. However, the bell is off of our line of professional C-tubas that all are 5/4 size. Yet, the weight is still slim at around 25 lbs. All of these specs have created an instrument that is light to carry around either in the hands or on the shoulder and the instrument is nearly perfectly balanced while on the shoulder. Finally, we changed around the leadpipe a bit so that when you are horns up, the condensation does not run into your mouth. Overall, all of the corps, colleges and high schools that use this product have been very happy with the durability, sound and ease of use." -Yamaha rep I certainly liked what I read there! any thoughts?

Good post, altough I don't completely agree with it, mostly the sentance highlighted in blue. It is very true that a 'french' horn ia a very different instrument from a mellophone. Our mellophone is a member of the alto horn family and does include the Tenor Horn (called Alto Horn in the USA). True mellophone mouthpieces and tenor/alto horn mouthpieces have identical rim and cups, the mellophone mouthpiece has a slightly smaller shank. From what I have seen alto/tenor horns tend to have smaller bells. Kanstul marching tenor horn: http://kanstul.com/pages/instruments/march...gs/kth270m.html Kanstul marching alto horn: http://kanstul.com/pages/instruments/march...gs/kma275m.html Kanstul marching mellophone: http://kanstul.com/pages/instruments/march...gs/kmm281m.html Both wraps are similar, the mello is a bit more compact though. Both are pitched in the key of F. The length of the tenot horn is 3 1/2 inches longer than the mello but I'm willing to bet the total length of the tubing is the same. The alto horn is the most compact out of the three with a length of 17 inches, (key of F) tubing length should be equall to the mello and tenor. using the right mouthpiece is very important to maximize the ability of the horn. Would you use a Bass Trombone piece on tuba? Of course not. So why use a trumpet piece on a mellophone? Reading Bucs use the CKB, I haven't played on it yet. It does appear to be a knock off of the Denis Wick tenor piece, prob the 6. This piece gets a great sound of the Dynasty mello, the 204 would certainly sound great with it!

The Yamaha piece is basically just a trumpet mouthpiece as is the Curry. Since you want a 'dark' sound going with a true alto/mellophone piece would be the way to go. I would reccomend the Blessing mello 5 or 6. Both pieces have deeper V cups than the 6V or mello 6. Rim on the 6 is ~ equall to a mello 6. The mello 5 is a little larger. FYI: The Blessing mouthpiece is a knock off of the Dennis Wick 5. I'm currently using a Wick 2, this piece sure is a beast but gives a great sound on my 204, much better than the Conn mello 6 I have. The Blessing piece costs~$30 on wwbw.com as the Wick is around $60.00 The Blessing will allow you to produce the sound you are looking for. Good luck and ask more questions when you have them!

It sounds like your embochure/appiture is very tight (learned that from Gino Cipriani). Decreasing the tension will help bring the tone down, eg relax the tongue. A larger mouthpiece will also help accomplish that. I was using a Conn mello 6, now I'm on a Wick 2. The Wick is pretty uge, but I do get a great sound out of it. The Blessing mello 5 might be a good fit for you. The rim will be a bit larger with a deeper cup compared to the 6v(the Blessing is a knock off of the Wick 5). It is also very affordable ~$30 from wwbw.com good luck

The old H.N. White horns (inlcuded the 'King' brand) are outstanding. The new horns, it doesn't matter who makes them, just don't hold up to the quality the old American built horns. IMO the biggest difference between todays horns and the old Americans is the technology used. I feel the designs of the Yamaha marching baritone and mellophone are the best to date. I do feel however that a craftsman in F.E. Olds plant in Ca or the Bach plant in Indiana in the 60s could make the current Yamaha horns as specified alot better. Question for those who are familiar with the original F.E.Olds and Bach mercedes marching brass: DO you feel the Yamaha line is based on these original designs?

Rai-Mello: Could you answer a few questions for me? What is your: primary instrument (eg, trumpet, horn,ect...?)? mouthpiece you use for that instrument? mouthpiece you use for mello? prefence in sound for mello(eg 16E like, Cadet like, horn like......)? embochure/apiture like(eg strong, weak, delicate, lareg, small....)? I'll do my best to help you or at the very least I'll send you in the right direction!

haha, great pic Rick! :P seriouly though, that horn is a beast, it looks bigger than the Dynasty euphonium's we have at Bucs. Try Kanstul, they prob sell replacement cases, Anvil is also an other case manufacturer(not sure on prices but those cases can with stand a lot of abuse)

I believe he means dc 'bugle' to be a horn in G. The conversion cit would put the Yamaha bari in G. I was also under the impression that the only 'bugle' that is a different horn from it's marching band counterpart is the soprano. The other brass instruments only differ from 'bugles' is the key. I conclude that a modern contra technically would be called G tuba? Mr Dennis certainly gives us a very different pespective on drum corps instrumentation!

I came across this interview on www.middlehornleader.com I posted selected excerpts I thought dcp would be most interested in and related to the thread topic the best. The original interview is much longer and is available here: http://middlehornleader.com/Dennis%20Interview.htm An Interview with Mike Dennis by Scooter Pirtle abstract: Mike Dennis was developing convertible instruments for several drum and bugle corps during the 1990s prior the rules change. In this article, Mike discusses the use of G bugles in drum corps. Selected Excerpts: SP: I guess it was almost a necessity at that time. MD: Well, if you wanted to get something done, you sometimes had to use "creative means." I will even admit now-since it is past the statute of limitations-that in 1968, the drum corps that I was with had mellophones in the key of D. Mellophones in D have never been legal and were never "Kosher" and we only used them for one year, but we had horns custom converted in the key of D so that we could actually have a "middle voice" in the middle of the ensemble. SP: How well did it work? MD: It worked fine and we made it through an entire season without getting caught! SP: Some things are worth the electric chair. What were some of the more common modifications you did to bugles during the 1960s and 1970s? MD: Most of what I tried to do was create the ability to play another note on the horn or to playa particularly bad note on the horn a little better. It didn't matter how many notes I had on the instrument as long as I was missing a couple, it always limited me as an arranger with what key I could write or what I could do with the instrument For example, in the days where drum corps allowed you one piston valve, a rotary and/or a slide, almost all my horns had a piston, a rotary and a slide. We would buy the horns with slide adapters on them and mount rotary valves on the slide adapters. Consequently, we had an extra A-flat that nobody else had. SP: Is there one overwhelming problem with having the entire brass choir in the same key? MD: The biggest acoustical problem is the fact that there really is no middle voice. What we've got is a soprano voice with a bunch of different colors to it; a baritone voice with a couple of colors to it and a "tuba" voice with the contras. What we're seriously lacking, if you stop to think about it, is the middle voice. Whether you do it with a French horn or a mellophone, you're still an octave apart. If I use French horns, which could easily play in the baritone register and begin to come up out of it so we could avoid all the notes that are bad on the instrument because of acoustics. The ninth, eleventh, and thirteenth partials are the parts of the horn which are horribly out of tune. Unfortunately, those partials are the notes that end upright in the "middle" of the horn's register and end up being used the most 50, I now have an instrument where the worst notes on the horn are "acoustically" where I make them play all the time. That doesn't work. If I could have pitched that French horn a fourth or a fifth higher than the baritone voice-so it was in the key of C or D-then I would have an opportunity to put the instrument's playing range where it would be in tune on the horn. Then I've got a "bridging" voice that goes between the baritones'3hd the sopranos. Whether I do that with a French horn that's higher pitched than a baritone or a mellophone that's lower pitched than a soprano, makes no difference. SP: Traditionally, the mellophone bugle's design has very closely fol­lowed the design changes of the F mellophones used by the marching band community. Has drum corps reached a point where it is leading the evolution of the mellophone instead of following it? MD: Clearly. Last week I was in New York and I happened to pick up a Giardinelli catalog and noticed they were selling mello­phones. Well, the same people who are making mellophones for drum corps are the same people making them for marching band. It's DEG making mellophones for marching bands. It’s King making marching band mellophones, evolutionary instruments developed from the drum corps mellophone. Then there were Blessing and Yamaha who currently don't make instruments for drum corps, but I'm sure their instruments are relatively similar to their drum corps instruments. When you really stop to think about it, the band mellophone in F and a drum corps mellophone in G aren't very different. In fact, there are a lot less differences between the instruments used by marching bands and drum corps than many people think. The major differences between a drum corps contrabass and a recording tuba are the positioning of the neck, the positioning of the valves, and the fact that the bugle is pitched a minor third low­er. If you take the bugle, take it to a concert band and set it in your lap, nobody is going to see the difference. The only instrument that I think is significantly different between bands and drum corps is the drum corps soprano. The drum corps soprano has a significantly different bell and sound compared to the trumpet. That has to do with the bell taper and the bell flare and things like that. The-mellophone bugle is two half steps from the F mellophone. All the other instruments are three half step difference between B-flat and G. I'm sitting here in my home right now and in the room that I'm talking to you from there are trumpets, marching band baritones, mellophones, euphoniums and all kinds of other instruments, even a tuba. I could take most of these instruments and put them into a drum corps person's hand and they would never know that it was a different instrument. MD: We've got a conversion kit for the contrabass and baritone. I can take a Yamaha marching baritone, and by adding some addi­tional slides into the horn, convert it into a drum corps baritone bugle. MD: Wayne Downey asked me last year for a horn that would play consistently from the low E to the A below high C. He went past those ranges about four times during the Blue Devils show last year. At one point in the show, he wrote-in the course of an eight measure phrase-from the low E to the high C on the horn. Wayne said that he has never had a horn that in tune that consistently. Donnie Van Doren [past brass instructor of the Garfield Cadets, Casper Troopers and now with Star of Indiana] is my next-door neighbor and he used to joke that the Yamaha contra the Cros­smen had was the only "legitimate" instrument in drum corps. DM: "..............I think that distinct sound that is drum corps comes from the fact that the instruments are in the key of G and, therefore, that key sounds the loudest outside. I think if drum corps were given the choice of any key of instru­ment they wanted, corps who choose to use instruments in the key of G would sound louder than corps who used B-flat instru­ments. Consequently, I think it makes sense to leave them in the key of G." SP: That's a very convincing argument.

What Yamaha model did you play test and what mouthpiece did you use? I played all the following horns using a Conn mello 6 mouthpiece: I haven't tried the new King yet. I don't care for the 1120 very much, the tone was a bit muddy (1120 played 3y.o. laquer, in excellent condition, also played a much older beat up 1120, both played similary). Conn 132E, at least 10yrs old but in excellent condition. Very free blowing with an even range, produces a nice round mellow sound. The thumb hook is necessary to bring F and D in tune. Valve cluster is farther away from the body when horn is held in playing position in comparisson to the F.E. Olds based mello models. Accent mello, I've been informed that this horn is manufactured by Kanstul. Very bell heavy and uncomfortable to hold. Free blowing, not as free as the 132E with an even range. I didn't feel the tone was very mello, it sounded more like an alto trumpet. Dynasty: I agree with this http://middlehornleader.com/Dynasty%20M540M%20Review.htm Yamaha 204: I agree with this http://middlehornleader.com/Yamaha%20YMP204.htm I'm now using a Wick 2 mouthpiece. It gives the Yamaha a much better sound. IMO the Yamaha mello piece is not a very good one. I'ts basically a slightly modified trumpet piece. other mellos I've played: Bach: mercedes, 1105spII, and DEG II 2v bugle.

I do not know if this will help: according to King's website the serial number would put the maufacturing year around 1981-1982. I believe the list includes all instruments mad by the H.N. White company and all horns bearing the brand 'King'. FYI: King was product line name used by the H.N. White company. Originally used for the legendary 'King' trombones built by former Sousa trombonist King. You might want to try contacting Selmer -Conn and Ziggy Kanstul at Kanstul. It's my understanding that Mr Kanstul designed and superived the production of the 'King' bugles

I'm with you on this DrumCorpsFan27. IMO it seems to many corps are using too much 'original' material, when familiar tunes are down they are so over arranged we can't recognize them, theres been to much amped vocals and picnic tables. This past year the last day of DCI East, the loudest the stadium was for the Bridgeman Alumni Corps. They didn't have crazy drill, amps, doors, or singing. They played music we all (mostly) knew. They played for themselves, each other, and of course the audience. You bet they ROCKED the HOUSE! The energy coming off the field as well as the sound was awesome (I'm a Bb/F person but WOW, Bridgeman played the Kantsul G 'bugles' phenominally(sp?) ). For me it feels that alot of todays corps are very sterile, unemotional. Don't get me wrong I love the kids for all the hard work and dedication they put in to the activity, it feels the shows don't connect to the audience anymore. When I go to a show I do give avery corps a standing ovation, but it's not b/c the show inspired me to get me off my butt, it's the appreciation and admiration for the hard work and dedication the members put into the show all summer long. I would love to be able to stand up and cheer for both!