cixelsyd

That is quite a change from your previous contentions. You said earlier that DCI would not be marketable to sponsors unless it was clear they were presenting the top X number of corps. A league based on multiple factors like that will not necessarily have the "top X" corps. I find it fascinating how all those people who objected to major league sports comparisons earlier are silent now. I think we have already discussed the American leagues here recently. Some are more egalitarian than you infer. Others are not, and they suffer on that account. As for soccer, that is a different animal because pro soccer clubs typically participate in national and international tournaments in addition to their league play (i.e. top English Premier League clubs compete with other top European clubs in the UEFA Champions League). That creates an incentive for the national league to pay their leading teams more, to enable them to become more competitive internationally. DCI corps do not advance to any higher competitive tournament, so they do not have that purpose for paying their top groups more. When it does make sense, sure. In a lot of cases, it is done because there is a concrete reason why the competitors are similar. For instance, a high school league has 14-18 year olds because those are the ages found in those schools. Little league sports have more specific age divisions. Some leagues divide based on school size. In DCI, we have had size divisions in the past, but not anymore because there is not much demand for it (few corps of that size). We have never had age divisions within DCI because there has never been demand from a set of corps with a distinct and different membership age. Of course, I should also mention that everything in this post so far is much ado about nothing, because the DCI divisions are very nearly in competitive order anyway. There is hardly any crossover, so why the fuss? No, DCI is not simply a business. They are also a mission-driven organization. They may be in the business of producing events, selling tickets and media, and returning revenue to the corps, but they are ultimately in those businesses to satisfy their mission of supporting member corps and preserving the drum corps activity. If DCI was a pure business without the mission, there would be a billion better products and markets in which to do business.

You are young, right? Drill was only symmetric for a brief period in the 1970s. Asymmetry was present from the first time a corps stepped onto a field for competition. Do not know about Kevlar. We are still waiting for multi-key brass. Right now, the only keys condoned for competitive use are the Bb/F standard band brass. But if that is what you mean, corps you have never heard of in local circuits have been using them all along (1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s). Narration depends on how you define the term. The first corps I recall literally narrating when amplification made that practical was the Boston Crusaders in 2004. Themed shows were done by a number of corps circa 1960.

You are correct about that. But maybe you should include yourself among them. Or G7 corps will lose talent who prefer to compete in DCI, and talent who prefer DCI drum corps to whatever derivative performance ensembles Music in Motion, Inc. become. And by "talent", that may well include staff in addition to marchers.

That depends on how much Cadets borrowed, and how much they paid back.

But they did provide real service to the corps who filled out lineups at other tour shows, receiving appearance fees in the process. Those fees might have been lower than the member corps rate, but every dollar is a dollar of real service.

That is how it is done currently. Wow - another one who thinks all those "other corps" are all the same.

But those sponsors only give them money because of the exposure they get from NASCAR sponsorship.

Well, what benefits do top corps receive from participation in DCI events? There is your answer.

So you are contending that top corps do not teach? And that the top corps experience is not educational?

You have brought this idea up repeatedly. And it has been pointed out that it will never happen because of the concern that a group of 7 corps might use that opportunity to do an end around on DCI copyrights, claim unfettered rights to their historical DCI audio/video, and then leave to do the Music in Motion, Inc. tour. Market based booking is already available now - in the open market. Any corps that prefers market based booking is free to leave DCI and try it.

According to posts here, those corps put their money where their mouths were. $3250 each, in fact. But that is nowhere near the amounts you are discussing.

TV? Been there, done that - not cost effective. Evolving technologies have replaced the drum corps TV telecasts with theater shows and an endless array of Internet options for accomplishing the same things the telecasts did, but at much lower cost. As for the $150,000 buy in, I invite every corps who is up for that to post here. That will show us how many corps are willing and able to make that kind of initial investment.

Pretty much? No, each of those characteristics is manifest in a different set of corps. And they are not as easily stereotyped as either A or B, the way you make it sound. Once again, the groups you called out for separation were: Corps who do not tour nationally (only a few out west) Corps who do not compete on the same level (by your context, the bottom four WC corps) Smaller corps (only four small corps remain, two out west and two that tour to DCI Championships) Community-based corps (this varies without strict correlation to class or competitive stature, and without distinct demarcation) Teaching corps, as opposed to corps with mostly college aged, experienced kids (again, this varies without distinct demarcation) Your comments were full of other remarks mixed together, like: Do not have the inclination or ability to raise money Do not have the interest in doing a national tour Smaller corps perform simpler shows Fledgling corps After seeing so many of these remarks, and seeing you still claim contrary to reality that all these different factors appear in the same corps, I can only surmise that you do not really understand these corps after all – you just want them out. Get off my lawn! I do not know why else you would continue to try and paint them all with one broad brush. But I still have no idea how many of “them” you want off your lawn. I will ask again, then – why does that matter so much to you? Businesses are capable of marketing more than one product. They already are. Open class has their own separate BOD, their own separate coordinator, their own separate budget, their own separate tour, their own separate sheets, and their own separate championship. How is DCI resistant to that? All those separate things I just mentioned were created by DCI direction. Why do I have to look at this as a business question? I choose to look at both business and mission, as I would expect from the people running DCI. But you cannot establish that unless those corps are competing (and defeating) the other corps. Separating them so that they never compete head to head, as was done 2003-2010, leaves doubt as to how many of them really are the top X corps. Creating a separate league for the 7 would create similar doubt surrounding whether they even are the top 7, in contrast to the knowledge we have from 2012 competition where they were the top 6 plus the 8th place corps. So anyway, seems from the above that what you are really looking for is a “top 18” separation. If I am misinterpreting or oversimplifying, please correct me. Okay, so say we are looking at the top 18 becoming your enhanced world class (with Glassmen out, that would now include Oregon Crusaders). Tell me why Jersey Surf should be evicted from WC, based on your numerous criteria for separation above. They do the DCI ordained “full tour”. They compete at the same level. They are not a small corps. Their members are not locally limited. It must be because they are a teaching corps, then – but how does one know this? No, we refrain from saying it because it is not true. The DCI system for class division is based on financial and organizational criteria, which makes sense because the fundamental difference between the classes is the amount of touring they do. So corps are measured by attributes that determine their ability to do that amount of touring. If you would rather go back to having a class division based on competitive placement, just say so. That is an outdated notion, but some still hold it. DCI has moved on because they found it made more sense to bring in corps to their touring division who were financially capable, rather than corps with a few good years of competitive results who would not last.

You can make that claim for DCM, but DCE and DCW were just plain merged under the DCI umbrella. Nevertheless, my statement stands - the 7 were among those urging for merging of all three of those circuits into DCI.

Once again, there is a far more significant difference between professional sports leagues and high school. DCI is just two subdivisions of youth drum corps, one of which tours more than the other. What is the big fuss? How much of the DCI resources are consumed by open class, anyway? There is probably more money and effort expended by DCI on the bottom two or three WC corps than all of open class. Why is it such a big deal that the two divisions are promoted by one organization? Frankly, it makes the top corps look that much more impressive, like they are king of the mountain instead of just king of the hill. But if it is that big of a deal, would a separate DCI-OC.org satisfy your concern?

No, it is not. Once again, junior corps are often made up of kids with free time, and therefore use weekdays to full advantage at times, both on and off tour. Once again, most open class corps tour to a national/world championship. Their membership varies - some are local, some are international. (Membership in WC corps also varies in that regard.) Yes, there are. More than just the few I am presenting.

Maybe there is an opportunity to spin out a top-corps-centric, touring circuit? I imagine if this existed, maybe 7 corps would move over.

Okay, now you want to separate the corps who do not tour nationally. There are only a few of those left, all on the west coast. Okay, now you want to separate Pioneer, and I suppose all of open class too. Okay, now you want to separate smaller corps. Okay, now you want to separate community-based corps. Okay, now you want to separate corps who are there primarily to teach... You really ought to decide just what or who it is you want to separate, because it is not going to be practical to impose as many separations as you have listed here.

Really? Looking back at the G7 proposal recently, I was amazed at how much of what is being said and done now still comes straight out of that document. By the way, what is "teletive" information?

Are you at all familiar with DCA corps? Or the open class and less traveled world class DCI corps? DCA is all-age. It is weekend-only, because it is all-age, and open to the possibility of working adults participating. DCI is a youth activity, thus many participants have the summer off. Virtually all DCI corps tour, and convene on some weekdays even when not touring. The only DCI corps that even might be weekend-only are in areas where there are no weekday shows. Open class corps are clearly better aligned with DCI, not DCA. If that were not true, they would have pursued deeper relationships with DCA already in the natural course of events.

Well, it is a youth athletic league. DCI markets to youth participants based on the educational value of being a youth activity, and their staff (not just teaching, but most of the designers too) are professional educators. If you want a drum corps circuit to max out as an entertainment business, you need a circuit that drops the age rule and the education focus. Now, before I forget - why do you presume that a more egalitarian approach is "less promotable"? Is it only because you envision an entertainment business, rather than a youth athletic league? In that case, it would make sense to entertain with only your best act, and jettison the others. As a competitive league, however, closer competition sells. On the contrary. DCI does not prevent any corps, or group of corps, from toning up and relaunching (see Star - Blast). Of course, if they want to relaunch as something other than a competing junior drum corps, they need to relaunch outside of DCI. How do you know he did not? On what basis? Awful lot of speculation in there for someone who does not know the people involved. From what I know of them, this is off target.

That is so true. As an example, I recall some time ago, people from both sides of the discussions here suggesting something along the lines of handing a portion of the GE judging (maybe 5 or 10 points) over to people from outside of the DCI trained judging pool. Whether they be experts from related arts activities, celebrities, or just randomly selected members of the public, the idea meets with vociferous resistance.

As some are fond of saying here, you cannot compare DCI to major league sports. But seriously, unlike NFL vs. HS football, the needs of open class and world class DCI corps are in far greater alignment. The open class corps tour for fewer weeks, but they still need to eat, sleep, practice, and transport similar equipment day after day in the touring environment. They are both youth activities premised on music and visual arts education coupled with life skill learnings through competition. Sports at the high school level has similar ideals, in stark contrast to the highly paid adults who earn their livings in the NFL, and the difference in scale between the two is of far greater magnitude than OC vs. WC drum corps. I agree. Why not? But that just presents DCA with the same problem you claim DCI has. Remember that very few of the DCI corps we are talking about are weekend only - nearly all do several weeks of through-the-week touring.

Judge for youselves. The DCI mission statement, as last posted here, reads: Drum Corps International is a cooperative fraternity of its member corps. We seek: To promote, develop and preserve the operational and artistic standards of the competitive musical sport; and To provide organization and leadership for the activity; and To develop and successfully operate musical events for the participating drum corps community. Drum Corps International is the promotional, educational and service arm of the drum and bugle corps activity. It establishes rules and regulations; develops educational programs, such as the PBS broadcast of The Summer Music Games World Championships and the annual Management and Promotion Seminar; publishes DCI Today, a bimonthly publication; produces promotional videos and brochures; organizes judging seminars; showcases the top corps in North America in an annual summer tour; and promotes the activity worldwide. My opinion would be that given the number of references to the activity, rather than just the member corps, DCI has declared their mission to extend beyond just their member corps. While Stu appeared to be overstating that at one point, his subsequent posts seem to line up with the above. Good - you get that too. Now, can you tell Daniel Ray?

I am going based on what is in writing. You are the one contending that what is in writing is no longer true. I think it is clear which one of us is indulging in conjecture.