BDCorno

Well that's fantastic. Congratulations on your baseball championships. Must've been some big time championships, since you don't specify who the teams are or where they were, but that's not really important. As for your obviously sarcastic trolling, I am not going to take that bait, beyond telling you that I have judged music and visual almost continuously since 1983. That means I've had to stay abreast and educated on any and all developments in terms of design and current techniques. Judging process really hasn't changed much over the past 35 years, just the content and nature of what is being judged. I can tell you that since the demise of the T&P judge (that's timing and penalties, for those of you who performed in drum Corps in this century lol), that at no time has a stopwatch been part of the evaluation process. At any rate, since you're probably busy here well after midnight, pouring through the latest show videos to refine down to the hundredth of a percent how Vanguard is superior in all ways to the competition, I won't take up any more of your time. Have a nice evening.

Which of course is about as relevant as your stopwatch measurements. Just saying

Brass and visual in the 1980s. So while we are comparing hand sizes, what is your extensive championship pedigree in?

None, but I've actually judged drum corps. Buddy.

Well, whatever that is, stick with that. You're out of your league judging drum corps.

Still available for Saturday?

How many championships have you won doing anything? Stupid question. That stopwatch game cuts both ways...

I'd just invite you to come to a rehearsal some time. It's apparently the only way you might understand what I'm talking about. I can tell you BD has kids from Bluecoats, Crown, Cadets and many others. Wish I could introduce you and let you ask them what they think about how BD's show compared to where they came from. They'll tell you. Somehow I think that may be the only way you'll believe it.

...and park and blow much more.

Sorry, not clear on my part. You made the statement that you felt other corps' shows were more physically demanding...the way to appreciate what they're doing is to see it up close. Many times, they move so well, you don't really realize how difficult what they're doing is. Down on the field, you can really see it. As for understanding their show, you can do that at many levels. My specific intent was to address your questions regarding the physicality of what they do. That's it.

####. Really wish you could attend a BD rehearsal, or a run through in person. At field level. I think you'd understand.

Contra, are you going to Indy?

You only marched one show? Who did you kneecap to take their spot for finals?

Cairnman@verizon.net

All valid points. At the end of the day...despite the pleas of the crowd...corps play to the judges. It's a competitive activity and that's sort of the lay of the land. I understand your positions.

I appreciate you take, Mike. This is one of those watershed years that DCI is transitioning. After the upending of convention last year via Bluecoats, it's a year in which the activity will have to chart its course. SCV does a very nice job of blending "old skool" drill concepts (have always loved and respected Pete's drills) with modern WGI guard and visuals, and a smokin' hot drum line to boot. BD has chosen a hybrid that leans further toward the full "Blast" approach that Coats deployed last year. It's good to see a multiplicity of show approaches...it's healthy for the activity and it gives the fans a choice of what they like. I really can't say at this point what the final results will be. Blue Devils need to get/keep their percussion in the top 2, possibly 3 at worst...SCV needs to keep it close in visual. GE might be a stalemate. Gonna be close. Lots of talk about a tie, but with all the judges, half tenths and all the ridiculous averaging, we might see another .013 decision.

Well, you have to admit that the current discussion actually has something to talk about. OP's original point was "RIGGED!". Not much to talk about. I guess after the discussion metamorphed (lol good one, stealing) into a non-tinfoil hat discourse, he lost interest quickly. As for your points about body shaping, it's the less obvious stuff that is giving BD the credit. Really can't explain it well, you kind of have to see it up close. If you're at Indy, BD will be rehearsing about a quarter mile west of Military Park at IUPUI. Check it out if you get a chance. It's hard to get perspective on many things, in terms of velocity (which they still have some work to do in some areas of the program), pace and the movement vocabulary of the program. I'm not downplaying anyone else here...just staying on the BD topic. Despite all the conspiracy theories and such, corps generally get scored properly (with some slight variances), and for good reasons. At the highest levels, everyone is really good, so the details are what separates the groups...and those details aren't seen on video in many cases. Please search YouTube and find/watch the high cam video posted there of 2016 BD at finals. After you watch, I think you'll find that BD marches quite a bit, some of the stuff very difficult and performed very well. The premise that "it is their signature to do body movements rather than march" is largely a fallacy. I do realize that this season is a bit different, but knowing Jay and the creative process BD uses, there will be plenty of "drill" there by Indy.

Well, I apologize for that. I'm someone who loves the G bugle sound...just trying to find a good parallel to illustrate a lack of moving forward in terms of the activity, for good or bad. So upon review, a big swing and a miss. May edit to a better example. Thanks for pointing out, good catch... Update: deleted said reference. Probably too confrontational in context, and a poor example to boot. thanks for the heads up.

I think you'll like BD live, and I'm sure you'll love SCV. They're two completely different approaches. I really love them both, and appreciate the CRAFT involved with both show designs. The overall strength of both programs is a virtual tie, so the winner will be decided by the performers on finals night...as it should be. Unfortunately, this is an exception and not a rule when it comes to top 2 at DCI finals, so this should be a rare treat. The 3rd-4th battle should be compelling as well, assuming neither make a late jump into the discussion for a title. Other story lines such as Boston/Cadets, Phantom/BK and the always entertaining 11-12-13 battle should keep interest up. I'm really looking forward to it. But yeah, overall I am less impressed with the shows once you get past the BK/Phantom area. Bluecoats upended convention last year, it's a time of some radical change in terms of shows and visual, much of it that I'm not a big fan of...so it's sort of a mess as the activity finds its way into a new equilibrium. Sigh.

...and this is really a point that renders all the stopwatch work and the ridiculous listing null and void. Treefiddy, this preposterous notion that you can quantify who should and should be winning with a stopwatch ignores many aspects of visual design. THE CAPTION IS VISUAL, NOT MARCHING. Marching is an integral and important COMPONENT of the visual program, and by default, the visual caption. Hey, I marched back in the day before all the body movement became a reality for horn players. I've judged brass, visual, and winter guard for over 30 years, spending a great deal of time doing Ensemble Analysis/Visual Analysis. It's been an evolution on the visual front, and it's not "your daddy's" M&M caption any longer. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that someone like yourself, Treefiddy, who not only missed the 100% marching M&M days, but also the G bugle era, takes such a stodgy and backward approach/view of what constitutes valid criteria for determining a winner in the visual caption(s). I find it quite common that people discount or otherwise dismiss body shaping, coordinated movement with other elements, characterizations, balance/center considerations, and free form (yet programmed) "drill" work in favor of pedestrian marching. From a repertoire standpoint, layering of elements, additional detailing of individuals within that layering, ability of performers to tend to that detail, and awareness of style manifested by uniformity/adherence to the same. It's a far deeper evaluation process than you're considering with the simplistic and largely irrelevant numbers you spout. The activity is gravitating toward a "stage" approach on a rapid basis. Bluecoats trotted out a show of that type last year, which was rubber stamped by fans and judges alike. Luckily, the visual staffs of both BD and SCV have taken that concept, imprinted a unique take on it, and are deploying it successfully. Think of the levels that judges have to consider when evaluating the rep side of visual analysis, in ascending order: Level 1 - Staging and placement of elements Level 2 - Drill, pedestrian marching or otherwise (largely transitional these days, not normally primary visual impact element) Level 3 - Body work/movement on an ensemble basis Level 4 - Coordination of staging, drill body work within sections Level 5 - Coordination of elements, section to section (also suitability to style) Level 6 - Layered design elements (if present) ...and the ever-important QUALITY of the above repertoire pieces as an inherent point of consideration. Same on the performance side. It's not "is your drill clean or not?" and that's it. Mechanical considerations are important, for sure. At the highest levels, the difference between winners and losers is *quality of performance*. Watching a video, or only looking at superficial performance aspects, doesn't give one the best perspective to evaluate visual proficiency or repertoire. Not impossible, but difficult. Might I suggest you do some high cam video review, take your eyes off the drill aspect of visual and nothing else, and look deeper. See the layering, the details (as best you can, hope it's HD), the quality of performers both individually and corporately...it's a fascinating way of watching shows. Hey, I understand you love your red team...I love their show this year too, along with many of the other finalists. As you see here often on PCP, because I have "BD" in my handle, for some I'm automatically an inflexible homer that lacks the ability to appreciate all. I can tell you this is assuredly NOT the case. I call it like I see it, and if anything I'm a little harder on my "home team" than the others. In my professional opinion, the visual numbers are pretty accurate. That's all that I will say about the issue. You may disagree, but I hope you might have a better understanding where I'm coming from with my opinion. It's going to be a great finals.

Thanks for linking back to your post...had seen it a while back and remembered it. Good analysis, and while I have a few divergent thoughts on a couple of things, I thought your analysis was very good, to the point, fair to all the groups surveyed, and mostly on target.

Nah, too big a hill to climb for Coats at this point as far as I can see. Hate to say it, but they're pretty well slotted at this point. Unison GE hits from both the horns and guard lack exposure, and that's hurting. Of course, adding the exposure might reveal the inconsistencies between performers, so it's a catch-22. Not sure how/why they are down to eight snares too, but seems their percussion scores have been flagging a bit since that happened. All that said, was happy to find that their show has finally hit its stride...really enjoy the music a lot, best hornline they've had IMHO, but the program and guard will keep them out of the top 2. Good chance of passing up Crown, though it won't be easy. It's a 1-2 battle and a 3-4 battle.

...and the sooner you see it in your corps (don't get me wrong, EVERYONE is doing it) instead of playing these games, the better

Are you counting the times where the small ensemble is standing and playing and the rest of the horn line is simply marching as "marching and playing"? Just curious. How do you credit "Crystal" (BD trumpet feature)? Are they marching and playing, or are they standing and playing? Is there a benchmark amount of seconds within a phrase that suddenly qualifies as "marching without playing"? If it's moving, do you apply a certain percentage as a cutoff between the two? Is marching and playing punch figures given weight compared to playing full out phrases? It's not an easy or accurate measurement, and really has no relation to anything, though you did find that SCV parks and blows more than BD. Nice to dissolve that myth. Whatever, good for entertainment purposes.