wolfgang

btw, here is a list directly from the BOA website about which works are off limits (for bands or corps) due to copyright issues, and which works may be used but it will cost the performer $$ for the rights to distribute video recordings. It is my opinion this list is going to grow much longer in the coming years, and at some point in the near future the majority of marching band and drum corps shows will be original material (or older public domain works. Get ready for a glut of 19th Century Classical music shows in about 5 years).

I posted this on a BOA thread, but am reposting here as this is a legitimate separate topic, and I think one that will soon impact this activity a lot more that we understand right now. (this reply was about the growing use of original music by bands and corps) You see, there is this thing called copyright law. In the marching band world it was pretty much ignored until the 1990's (someone correct me if this is wrong), but in 1990 Marian Catholic played Johan DeMeij's "Lord of the Rings". Apparrently someone played a recording of it for him and to make a long story short that was the beginning of BOA requiring bands to get permission from the copyright holders. Now, BOA is doing everyone a huge service by having a list on it's website of publishers/composers who will not let arrangements be done (off the top of my head- John William, Orff's "Carmina Burana", "Turandot" by Puccini, etc). It seems that this list is growing. So...., if you will notice, lately enterprising guys like Key Poulan, Frank Sullivan, Richard Saucedo, Mark Higginbotham, etc. have started writing original music and selling it to high school bands (I'd say Poulan has had the largest national base of groups use his stuff). That way, there is not copyright issue to work around (and let's not forget it costs $$ to get permission, though the amount varies by composer or publisher). We have also seen this in DCI, primarily from the Cavaliers. I agree, an arrangement of an existing work is usually more interesting for me to listen to (though I will admit I have really liked a lot of the music Frank Sullivan has been putting out, especially for groups like Castle, Penn, Ben Davis, and even Tarpon Springs). Even WGI has had groups get permission to use the pre recorded music on their dvd's (example, the IW finalist Light Brigade did a guard show of Prince music- however, the dvd is only video, no music due to issues such as this). Bottom line- For better or worse, the train has left the station with regards to original music and it's not coming back.

1). Do you think the day will come (or is it already here to some extent) when the activity of choice for percussionists will be WGI groups like Rhythm X or Music City Mystique over drum corps. and 2). I've never seen Evelyn Glennie live. Actually, the only time I have seen her was on David Letterman and while the playing was exquisite, it wasn't something that seemed particuarly challenging for a world class musician (of course, it was Letterman, not PASIC). If anyone has seen her live, does she justify the hype?

There is a reason for that, and unfortunately it's only going to get worse. You see, there is this thing called copyright law. In the marching band world it was pretty much ignored until the 1990's (someone correct me if this is wrong), but in 1990 Marian Catholic played Johan DeMeij's "Lord of the Rings". Apparrently someone played a recording of it for him and to make a long story short that was the beginning of BOA requiring bands to get permission from the copyright holders. Now, BOA is doing everyone a huge service by having a list on it's website of publishers/composers who will not let arrangements be done (off the top of my head- John William, Orff's "Carmina Burana", "Turandot" by Puccini, etc). It seems that this list is growing. So...., if you will notice, lately enterprising guys like Key Poulan, Frank Sullivan, Richard Saucedo, Mark Higginbotham, etc. have started writing original music and selling it to high school bands (I'd say Poulan has had the largest national base of groups use his stuff). That way, there is not copyright issue to work around (and let's not forget it costs $$ to get permission, though the amount varies by composer or publisher). We have also seen this in DCI, primarily from the Cavaliers. I agree, an arrangement of an existing work is usually more interesting for me to listen to (though I will admit I have really liked a lot of the music Frank Sullivan has been putting out, especially for groups like Castle, Penn, Ben Davis, and even Tarpon Springs). Even WGI has had groups get permission to use the pre recorded music on their dvd's (example, the IW finalist Light Brigade did a guard show of Prince music- however, the dvd is only video, no music due to issues such as this). Bottom line- For better or worse, the train has left the station with regards to original music and it's not coming back.

Have you ever been to BOA Grand Nationals or a major BOA regional? Which BOA caliber band did you see (since no Northern California band has done BOA for a long time). As far as execution between then and now, at some extent it's apples and oranges. Compare 1979 DCI visual to 2005 DCI visual. No comparison in terms of what the performers are being asked to do. The 1979 visual may be as clean (or for the sake of argument slightly cleaner), but there is no comparision in what the performers are doing then vs now. Same with bands. I can't speak to northern California bands, but in Indiana and BOA (at least at Grand Nationals) the top level bands perform extremely well. Is it the squads and precision drill of the 1970s? No, but the simultaneous demands on the performers is much, much greater today than 25 or 30 years ago.

I would suggest getting out of your cocoon and seeing what is out there in the country. If you haven't noticed, Chuck Naffier (ArrangerX), who has arranged for D1 corps for years (Crossmen/Troopers most recently) and judged bands across the country, and who I would say qualifies as an expert, stated the top bands could be as high as 8th (which is more generous than I was stating). As I pointed out, using 2 bands from my home state as an example, Carmel has the Cavies music arranger as their band director, a big name working with their drum line, and one of the best drill writers in the business writing for them (and I would state this wouldn't be like band #30 in his pecking order; he would give this one his best effort). Avon has a former DCI D1 percussion arranger/current DCI judge and Carolina Crown's current brass caption head as their band directors. Common sense- is it so difficult to believe that with this caliber of talent teaching the kids, the same talent that instructs/evaluates the best marching groups in the world, that those kids would play at an extremely high level? And, as I pointed out, there are other great music/visual educators that many people have never heard of out there that also do great things, they just aren't able to travel around the country every summer for 2 months. It never ceases to amaze me that a lot of people seem incapable of enjoying the best of corps, band, winter guard, winter percussion without demeaning the other. Different activities all, but excellence is excellence, no matter where it occurs.

ding ding ding!!! We have a winner

I would put lines like Center Grove, Centerville or Avon against almost any Div. II line. However, I will leave it to percussionists who have seen both Div. II/III and these groups to make a better comparison. This is the flaw in your comparison. Your are comparing TOB to drum corps, not realizing there is a whole world outside of that circuit which has bands that are at a higher level than the top TOB bands (which the top ones are pretty good, but comparatively speaking there are other areas of the country that are much stronger in the marching band area). Take a road trip to Texas, Indiana, Georgia or California (and other places as well) and you'll discover this for yourself. Top 14 or 15, I agree. Top 21? As I indicated earlier, I believe if Pacific Crest came to BOA Grand Nationals and competed, they would not make finals. That's not a knock on PC, it's just a realization from someone who has seen both. Look at it this way: I'm using bands from my home state to make a point. Take Carmel or Avon. One has the Cavies music arranger (Richard Saucedo) as band director, Mike Gaines as drill writer, and (please correct me if incorrect) Mike McIntosh working with their drumline. Those are some pretty heavy duty names in the activity. The other has Jay Webb (former Div. I percussion arranger and current DCI judge) as head band director, Matt Harloff (current Carolina Crown Brass Caption Head) as assistant band director, Leon May (Carolina Crown drill writer), Jay Bocook (you know who he is), etc. These people are among the best in the world at what they do. Is it so out of kilter to maybe, possibly consider that if a student has the benefit of day to day instruction and/or benefit of the best efforts of these designers, that their performance (and shows) would tend to be at a high level? Even if a school is not taught by "big name" drum corps people, there are a lot of really good music educators around the nation that are pretty darned good at what they do. No high school band is ever going to be good enough to win DCI, and nobody is suggesting that. However, as a fan of both, I applaud good performances, whether by a drum corps, band, winter guard or winter drumline. Excellence is excellence, no matter which activity it occurs in.

Out or curiosity, which BOA events have you been to? Ever been to Grand Nationals? West Virginia used to have a regional several years ago, but not recently.

Could a hs band beat a "top rated" corps? No. Could a hs band beat a 15-21st place corps? Yes. Also, some replies to this are wanting to make a band into a corps (limiting to 135, etc). As has been mentioned, if you took bands like Carmel, Lawrence Central, Reagan, LD Bell, Lassiter, MIssion Viejo etc. and limited them to 135, using just their top brass players and no woodwinds, they would absolutely beat some of the 15-21st place corps (no comment on 14th and higher corps). I think the one area where bands would probably fall a little short is in percussion, but then again a group like Center Grove may be quite competitive with the 15-21st place corps (I'm not a percussionist so will let people who are more competent in that area give their opinions). I honestly don't think that a group like Pacific Crest, in a hypothetical situation if they came to BOA Grand Nationals as a drum corps, would make BOA GN finals. Finally, it was reported that in 1998, when Lassiter from Marietta, GA came and won BOA with their "Wind and the Lion" show, that a band director and current DCI Top 12 Brass caption head stated if they had been in DCI that year, they would have finished well into the top 12 (I won't say the place it was reported he said because I had to do a double take at that; but I will say it was a lot higher than 12th). I don't want bands to become corps and corps to become bands. Each is unique and wonderful in it's own right. I would rather watch Cavies or Phantom than a band show any day. Wolfgang

It would be "interesting" but ultimately no contest. USSBA and TOB are circuits; BOA is really not a circuit in the normal sense of the word. And no, the top USSBA/TOB bands would not be anywhere near the top of BOA (which is really the top bands from a number of circuits such as UIL, ISSMA, a bunch of other state/regional circuits, and even places like Georgia and Illinois which don't have circuits). To give a reference, at the BOA GN prelims last Friday, South Brunswick (NJ), who finished 2nd in the USSBA Group VI Open (theoretically the top class), finished 26th out of 46 bands in it's set of prelims (there were also 46 bands who played on Thursday); Whitehall, who was 2nd in I believe Group IIIA, was also there on Thursday and came in 41st out of 46. Westminster, one of the top TOB Group IV bands, was also there on Friday and came in 23rd out of 46. Before the defensiveness starts, both of these groups are really good bands. My comment isn't meant to disparage South Brunswick or Westminster, it's to point out that at BOA Grand Nationals there are a lot of really, really good bands. Just to even make semifinals (30-34 bands) you have to be outstanding. There were some excellent bands sitting on the sidelines on Saturday besides the 2 mentioned above (as in state/circuit champion bands in their own right). USSBA and TOB would be more accurately compared to UIL, ISSMA, WBA, etc., than to BOA. Apples and Oranges. Wolfgang

Not sure about the pit, but (please correct me if incorrect) I believe they marched 9 snares, 5 basses, and 4 tenors (don't remember about cymbals). Pretty big high school drumline. Winning WGI Percussion World Championships and having a nationally known DCI percussion judge/staff member as your band director would tend to make for a large and very good drumline. Having an assistant band director who happens to be Carolina Crown's Brass Caption Head would tend to make for a pretty stout wind program.

I know this is a DCI forum, but I think everyone can appreciate and applaud the dedication of the young lady below. Last weekend the Bands of America Grand National Championships took place at the RCA Dome in Indianapolis. During Saturday afternoon's semifinals, during an amazing performance by Avon HS from Indiana, their rifles were throwing a unison 5 right in front. One of the girls tossed it a little bit off and hit the lady beside her in the face, breaking her nose. The young lady was dazed for a moment, but quickly got back in with the guard and finished the show. Later that night, she performed during the finals. Btw, I have to say that besides that one glitch, Avon's semifinals visual performance was the best marching performance I have ever seen a high school band do. I have never, ever in my life seen a band march the tempos they were moving at consistently (ie- not one or 2 charts but for most of the show), doing the caliber of drill and that clean (here is the DCI Jr. Corps connection- I believe their drill writer is Leon May, who I think does Carolina Crown's drill. Somebody may verify that. ) There are corps who made the top 12 last year whom I doubt could have done a better job with that drill. Anyway.... Right before the toss the immediate aftermath immediate aftermath, part 2 photo from the final set I think her name is Megan. Megan, I salute you. Somewhere, someplace a drum corps needs someone like you. Thank you for demonstrating what heart and desire are all about. Wolfgang

Which corps are you accusing of doing this?

this could be a separate thread, but just once I would love to hear Chuck Henson announce a DCI contest. I don't know if his agreement with BOA is exclusive to them, but he's about the best I've ever heard (along with Mr. Crocker). Great, deep voice. If you've ever heard Chuck, can you picture: "Joining us from Madison, Wisconsin...." . (I think Chuck actually was in Madison's colorguard. Can anyone confirm?)

If you want to hear a Bocook arrangement of Equus, check out Avon HS from Indiana at the BOA Grand Nationals in a few weeks. They have one of the most physically demanding drills I have seen a HS band attempt. Where is Cap Regiment going to get the clarinets?? (see Avon and you will understand the joke).

I didn't know what a drum corps was back in 1979, but I've heard a number of people state that Spirit's hornlines in '79 and '80 were the loudest they've heard (the loudest I have personally heard would be Blue Devils '86; when they hit the first loud chord in "Channel One Suite" at Camp Randall, it was like "HELLOOOO"). So, please describe the sound (volume, intonation, tone quality, overall sonority) of Spirit's hornlines those 2 years. Compare it with BD '86 if you can (at least that will give me a frame of reference). Wolfgang

How do the rifle books of modern winterguards compare with those of the late '70's and early '80's in terms of difficulty, vocabularity, height of tosses, etc? One other related question- are the rifles used today different (in size or weight) to those used 20 years ago? thanks

This question is directed at anyone who was at WGI Ind. World prelims in Dayton this year. I am not a guard person, I am a brass player, but want to learn a bit about technique. Of the 21 guards in the IW prelims, the one who got the most crowd response was South Shore Drill Team from Chicago. They finished 18th and didn't make finals. The reason they got such great response was because (I believe) they did many entertaining trick tosses/catches (and caught them, which I understand some higher placing guards had troubles with in finals). I saw them at a WGI regional earlier in the year and they also got huge response, but since most of the crowd at finals was (my assumption) "in the know" about technique, etc., I was slightly surprised their response was so huge (based on comments reference below).... Now, to me, a novice, they were very entertaining. As far a movement (I know little to nothing), my untrained eyes could tell they didn't move as "gracefully" as other guards, but then again their show was Eminem music; would ballet technique fit with that? Hip-hop dance moves seemed much more appropriate. Ok, after the above rant, here is my question- I have heard guard people complain about South Shore "yes, they're entertaining but they don't use correct technique"..... So, please educate me about what they are doing that is "incorrect". For the most part I saw rifles spin together and land in the hands of the performers. Please teach away.