BRASSO

I understand your point. However, Corps that win Championships RARELY are the national audience favorite for that year. Your mentioned Star of Indiana here earlier. This Corps had a meteoric rise up the DCI ladder, and did so early on with highly pleasing, audience friendly shows. They then evaluated the landscape and concluded that the way to actually win a Championship under DCI judging guidleines adopted would require them to incorporate more demand, complexity, nuance into their shows.... in essence they would need to go( for lack of another word)...." esoteric." It was successful in that quest. It won them a title, before they quit DCI ( and then went back and recreated more audience appealing shows for people in theatres which in turn won them a Grammy for entertaining thousands of people around the world ). It is not unusual at all for Corps to rise up the DCI ladder with crowd pleasing shows. It is one way for them to attract more members to their Corps. But untl Crown, Blue Stars, Boston, Troopers, etc can actually WIN a Championship ewith crowd pleasing shows, it is hard to envision this occuring unless they become more esoteric and " out there "with their approach to show design. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying a Corps can't win it all AND be the crowd's favorite for that year. I'm just saying that in the last 20 years, we can count on one hand the number of years where this was the case, that's all.

Well there you go. Glad you had a change of heart on posting again. See,.... that wasn't so hard, and you were able to get your words in edgewise and without personal attack.

Why is it so " hard to get a word in edgewise " on DCP ? They seem to have enough thread space and bandwidth, no ?

You're welcome, Ron.

Well, for the record, Star did not win in 1993 because of the audience reaction one way or the other. The audience was not a factor then..... nor is it today. The Cadets won in 1993 over the Star of Indiana because they were simply better in the eyes of the judges. Now, ...you may disagree with the judges that judged that year ( or any year ), but that's the way things have ALWAYS been in Drum Corps. I just find it unusual that some people have such high levels of disregard for audiences, and have no suggestions for Mr. Hopkins when he seems perplexed and vexed that audiences ( smaller ones at that ) now do not seem to respond to DCI shows like they used to do. My guess, many probably are satisfied with the entertainment level on the whole of the shows compared to previous years and really are in no mood to see ( that dreaded word ) " changes " in the activity in this regard take place. Some people tend to be adverse to change and are conservative by nature, and this may explain some of this resistance to change. But The Cadets Director does appear to be searching for answers here regarding audience lukewarm receptions to Corps shows of late. The answer though is pretty simple. Audiences don't matter in the scores and placements. Thus, the shows are rightly designed to appeal to those that do matter in the scores and placements. And, as a result, we have had over the years a growth in the number of judges in DCI.....but predictably and not unsurprisingly....... no growth at all in the numbers in the audience.

Well, you could donate your time by volunteering to a Corps.That doesn't cost anything but your time. Dependiing on your financial situation, you could do anything from buying tickets and souvies and going to shows all the way up to buying a Life Insurance policy and putting it into a Irrevocable Trust and making your Corps ( or DCI ) the beneficiary of the Life Insurance proceeds at death... especially given the fact that Drum Corps has treated you better than your family. Those are just a couple of things that come to mind without knowing much about you, any way.

DCP thread discussions are sunshine, kittens, and lollipops compared to most college, pro sports fans, political, etc message board discussions.

Very well put. One thing that is undeniable is that the definition itself of " general effect " has itself changed over the DCI years......... and much more so than the " brass execution " caption that has pretty much not changed at all in the intervening years. I agree on 2008 Phantom Regiment scoring and placement. Their " mistake" was that their visual and guard was subpar compared to Brass and Percussion. And that is toxic to scores under the currrent DCI captions. If one has to have sub par elements in the show, it is much preferable to have it in brass and percussion, the music side..., than in the visual side. For instance, had Phantom had a first rate visual program and guard, they could have sustained execution problems with their brass and percussion, and would have not have finished as low as they did. It was primarily Boston's and Blue Stars stronger visual and guard that gave them the edge over Phantom last year even though technically Phantom seemed clearly to have a better brass and percussion line in terms of overall talent. The lesson here is that the visual and guard are more important in scores and placements than music, brass, percussion. In the last 15 years, Championships have come primarily through innovative and creative VISUAL programs..... not predominently through the MUSIC. The impact of WGI on DCI can not be underestimated, in my opinion.

Agree. Nobody here is suggesting that judges base the bulk of their score on how well or poorly the show connected with an audience either. Nor is anyone suggesting that judges are too stupid to determine automatic " home team " enthusiasm for Corps from states where the judged competition is taking place. We give too little credit to judges to properly discriminate here when we make such claims as a rationale for rejecting the paying customer in this fashion. Since I 'm willing to cede to brass judges that they can properly judge the brass line execution in the all important last 20 seconds of a show from 100 yards away in a booth with fans yelling and screaming all around them on Finals Night, why is it not also possible for the GE judge to make a determination if the perfomance connected well or not with the audience ? The judge is ALREADY impacted in his or her duties by audiences when there is noise around them and they are trying to judge such proficiency and execution issues as tone quality, balance, attacks and releases, etc. No ?

The other thing that can't be emphasized enough is that the DCI judging ranks is a very small in number group indeed. There is very little turnover, or new blood. As a result, DCI show designers know exactly what the preferences are of these judges. And there is very little diversity among the judgng communities tastes. If some of the shows from each of the Corps tend to have a sameness quality about them now, some of this can be attributed to the fact that many of the same faces are judging each year. In pro sports, coaches and players learn very quickly the preferences, foibles, inclinations, etc of each individual umpire, referee, and adjust their game accordingly. In baseball for example, some umpires have a wider strike zone than other umps. In basketball, some refs have quick whistles for technical fouls on challenging a refs call, while others give more lattitude to players and coaches who want to yap at them on questionable calls. So saavy players and coaches learn to adjust to these idiosyncracies. It's the same in DCI...... DCI show designers have heard the tapes in previous years. So in the offseason, they are not about to put together a show that will not take into strong consideration the likes and dislikes of these same judges that they see year in and year out.

It can get dicey however when some say that don't want a judge to make a subjective evaluation on how a performance was received by the audience. Too difficult. And I get that. But then it seems some of us will not question whether or not a judge can properly evaluate ( for just one example ) a singer's voice in the show.... or whether or not the guitar players played in unison, or if they misplayed the guitar chords, or if the lower bass guitar player was not in sync with the music passage, and created an ensemble discord, and so forth. If a judge can judge a singers voice re. proper voice control, tone, pitch, range, ensemble unity with brass and percussion, etc and so forth....... then it seems to me we should be able to trust the judge's competence to judge whether or not the show was being received in a coherent and connecting way on the part of an audience or not. This seems no more subjective and difficult to judge than what the judges are being asked to judge in shows already. If we are happy with the judging system that is in place, and want no change in this...... fine. We will continue to have shows designed to impress 6-12 people ( judges ) and audiences will be irrelevent. But know this...., no activity can expect growth if the audience is considered a non factor in the adjudication of what is considered " good ". And if audience responses to performances are not important in scores and placements, then we can expect continued disconnect with audiences on the part of shows. Why in heaven's name would Mr. Hopkins ( or anyone else ) expect anything different from audiences when they are essentially considered no more than deadwood in the stands when it comes to General Effect captions credit ?

. Good points here. I understand your central point that the judges would have some degree of difficulty in determining how well a show performance from a Corps connected to an audience. That said, judges ALREADY make difficult decisions. For instance, how realistic is it to think that a brass judge can properly adjudicate the all important final closing brass movements of a Corps at Finals Night in a booth, over 100 yards away, and with the crowd noise in front ? The judge is judging execution, tonal quality, brass section balance, etc and so forth in THAT difficult situation. This is just as much a subjective and difficult process on the part of the judge as being asked to judge whether or not the show connected to the audience or not. Also, keep in mind that the judges would not be asked to make " audience reaction " a predominent component of their score, just one factor in it. Right now, " connecting to an audience " is a NON FACTOR in the judging caption. In my personal opinion, this does not make much sense.... particularly when we are trying to promote excellence in the Performing Arts. And no commercially successful Performing Artist doesn't have as THE predominant goal that of " connecting to the audience ". And ANY successful performer can tell you whether or not their performance on any given nite was " connecting to an audience " or not. I would trust that a well trained, capable judge would have this same intuitive skill, especially given the already difficult task he or she is given on Finals Night that I just alluded too here.

I like your post. You come to this post thread with an accurate historical portrayal in my opinion of the changes in the judging captions. The DCI unit shows today reflect what is rewarded on the judging captions. It really is that simple. If Hops wants to know why adiences do not seem to react to shows as they have in the past, he need look no further than what is rewarded on the judging captions compared to earlier eras. This is not rocket science we are talking about here with this.

And of course it is one's region and experience. I grew up in a community ( in Massachusetts ) that had a population of approx. 50,000 people. With the age demographic of over 45 ( that we are using ) it would be inconceivable that ANYONE did not know of " Drum and Bugle Corps " that grew up in this community. If the percentage is 98-99% in this community, and just about every other community in the surrounding region likewise had a " Drum and Bugle Corps" it is very easy to understand how 50% or more familiarity figure can be easily attained in this geogrraphical region and among this age demographic. Taking it one step further, approx.every household within a 3 mile radius of my house growing up had someone familiar in some fashion with " Drum and Bugle Corps". Again, I understand others experiences are quite different than mine. I consider myself fortunate to have been surrounded with so many Drum Corps people familiar with Drum Corps in my formative years.

Well, a " marching band " does conjure up different images in one's mind all the way from DCI marching bands, to high school and college marching bands, to military marching bands. Within DCI, there are marching bands that use guitars, others that do not. Teal Sound is different in style from ( say ) Troopers. Some units are distinquishable by their own style of marching ( Cadets step off, Cavaliers step off for example) and by several other identifiable characteristics. And just as you said, there is a wide swarth of differences even within in the bands within the college realm, with different styles as well, from Ohio State, Riverside Comm. College, Texas A& M, Stanford, and FAMU Marching Band, and Military Academy Marching Bands, and so forth. Lots of style differences in the " Marching Band ' realm for certain. " Marching Band " is a diverse group.

Not to be picky, but when you visit your relatives in the Boston area, how would you know if none of your family's FRIENDS or neighbors in the Boston area ever heard of " a Drum and Bugle Corps " ? I have relatives in the Chicago area. I would have no idea what my relatives neighbors or FRIENDS might not be familiar with..... on anything, Drum Corps or otherwise. That said, I can only speak from my own personal experience. From my experience the vast majority ( did not say ALL ) of people I've come in contact with in Massachusetts that are over 45 have heard of " Drum and Bugle Corps ". I do not visit the area. I 'm a native. I know my experiences and am sharing them with you. I can not speak for others experiences who live in other regions or others who visit the Boston area on occasion.. Their experiences may be quite different for them than mine, and I do acknowldge that.

I havn't noticed much of an age disparity of likes and dislikes of Corps shows the last decade with those that actually go to the shows.. Corps shows that were liked, were liked by older and younger fans alike. And those shows that got lukewarm receptions received tepid reactions from both older and younger fans alike from my experiences.

It could be geographical thing perhaps, rather than an " age " thing. ( although " age " might be of some small additional factor) For instance, if you ask ( even today ) a native born resident of Massachusetts that is over the age of 45 if they have heard of " Drum and Bugle Corps" the overwhelming vast majority will say " yes " they know what it is, and many will know someone that marched in one as well. Hardly anyone over the age of 45 that grew up in Massachusetts does not know " what a Drum and Bugle Corps is ", and most could differentiate between "a Drum and Bugle Corps "and" H.S. and College Marching Bands" from their younger years.. So my guess, this could be a geographical situation perhaps,where your personal experiences for you in your region reflects different experiences on the part of those whom you know or meet from your region.

Besides, we could have glowing ( and accurate ) reports from camp that the brass line ( or percussion line ) is doing great and the show concept and music arranging is first rate. But unless the Guard is also 1st rate, then the Corps will be doomed come summer. And yet,how often do we get accurate camp evaluations on the Guard level of quality from camps ? Almost never. Thus, these camp reports are fun to learn about and all, but basically meaningless as a barometer of what we can expect in performance and placement potential from that Corps come the summer.

Conventional wisdom usually points that when a teacher SAYS they like something,their pupils find a reason to not like it so much. And when students like a type of music, usually we find a teacher ( especially one over 40 ) generally doesn't usually like that music of the young all that much. Drum Corps music... or other types of music. So I'm not surpised in the least with the reactions you receive. That said, we see both young and old alike enjoying classic rock groups from the 70's at live concerts today. My personal observations of 2009 SCV at live shows was that there was no age related breakdown in reaction to their show at live competitions.

You make some valid points here, I believe. To follow your suggestion, if we asked " complete outsiders " to tell us if the unit from ( say ) 1980 was " a Drum and Bugle Corps " or a " Marching Band ", we might get an interesting reponse. Perhaps they'd not see the difference, but my hunch many would they'd be inclined to call the unit a " Drum and Bugle Corps " ( especially if the " complete outsider " was from the northeast, as most people had at least SOME knowledge of Drum and Bugle Corps as they were prevalent in most communities ). Fast forward next to ( say ) 2009, and ask the " complete outsider " to tell us if the unit was " a Drum and Bugle Corps " or " a Marching Band", and I think the response would be almost universal,... that these units are " Marching Bands ". So, from my perspective, the changes in the activity has been gigantic since 1980 (especially compared to sports changes in the same time period )

" under the broad category of bands that MARCH, yes, Drum Corps is MARCHING Band " ( you commented ) hmnn..... I'll have to think about this a bit. MAYBE it's a MARCHING band. Some are. But under the conventiional definition of MARCHING, I'm not quite sure that fits properly anymore. A compelling case could be made that these units may more properly be described as " Dancing Bands". They use dance troupes in the forefront accompanied by brass and percussion, usually as an accompaniment and mostly positioned in the background ( although guitar players tend to be positioned up front on the field ). Dance soloists generally perform more minutes in the show than do brass or percussion soloists. And do the dancer soloists " march ", or do they perform " dance moves " ? Well, I think it's pretty evident that the moves are certainly " dance " moves rather than " march moves ". I don't see how an objective analysis then would say these are " marching " bands. Thus, as the activity evolves, it seems clear to me that the definitions of what these units are, likewise will evolve and more properly refer to what they are under conventional definitions.

Why is it only " 1 step away from Band " ? I think it's already " Band " When a unit has several guitars, speakers, amplified sound, singers, dancers, etc why is this considered NOT" a band " ? It may not be truly a " marching band ", particulary if the guitar players are stationary out front and do not " march" ( nor move very much ), or if singers with microphones likewise do not " march " ( nor play percussive instruments, use brass instruments, or use guard equipment and so forth ). But if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc..... you get the picture. It certainly seems to fulfill the conventional definition of " band " when it's a musical entourage that has music and dance and performs with singers, dancers, guitars, etc no ? I like several of these DCI " Bands " too..... while others,... not so much.

It is one of the risks ( a fall ) of the high velocity drill that The Cadets are known for. I found it almost symbolic that the Blue Devils used chairs in their show and performers took a seat at several intervals to sit and play. It was if they were saying.." lets take a break from all this running around, and sit a bit ".... and perform. Maybe this was not the intent... but it WAS the result. And who knows, maybe the Blue Devils are just ahead of the curve here a bit here on " the Next Big Thing " in DCI unit show design and visuals. 2010 will probably tell us if it's a trend or just a 1 year anomaly.

I am actually predicting that this will be the case. The 70's and 80's..... were the MUSICAL age. 1990's - 2000+.....is the VISUAL age. I envision they'll be more balance in future years, where the MUSIC is more balanced with the VISUAL. It is hard to encompass running and high velocity drills, etc once we have ( for example) multiple electric guitars and other instrumentation not conducive to such high velocity drill on the part of performers on the field. Guitars will definately slow the visuals pace down it would seem to me, andwill allow more diversity for certain in the musical sound as well as musical offerings in the future on the part of these units.