BRASSO

I hear you. But I warn you...With all these letters, I'm sure somebody is going to provide their own letters to this tale : " BS "

I'd agree too. Judges are human. Which brings us then to the next point : If we accept that judges can sometimes be influenced by off the field events, it only stands to reason that sometimes when we hear a score that makes little to no sense to us, it just might mean that we were not privy to what events off the field took place that might have had an impact on the performance score in which we were in attendance. For example, we may not know that a Corps has holes in this competitive performance due to sickness, but that the judge(s) perhaps became aware of this prior to their taking the field for competition.

sheesh..... he probably had his chance to get lucky and stay in that bar and shoot some pool, throw darts, watch a game on the tube, etc. Maybe he was served a drink and became the victim of a bad ice cube or something.

I agree... rehashing fall downs and it's relationship to visual caption scores has probably run it's course now as a worthy discussion to continue on this thread. I'm ready for something else. Bed.

a read of the Vis. Perf. and GE Vis. scores from a show this past summer showed a curious situation in that a Corps ( doesn't really matter who ) that had multiple falls in their show increased pretty substantially their score separation gaps in these captions over 2 Corps that had no falls at all in their show. The 3 Corps were relatively close in these score captions the night before where all three competed ( no falls ). The very next night ( yes, I do understand different judges angle ) only one of these 3 Corps had falls.... multiple falls.... due to slippery conditions. Yes, there was more demand, particularly more velocity, that perhaps contributed to the multiple falls. ( multiple falls here defined as one marcher slipping into another and then a chain reaction results in several marchers falling down, then getting up. I happened TWICE in this show with this Corps on this night ) But the visuals were not completed as designed and thus, one would think that the multiple falls the Corps had twice would show up in the scores in these captions in particular. They didn't. The fact the Corps that had multiple falls INCREASED their separation in these captions over the other 2 Corps from the previous night made no sense. Could some of it have been attributed to better execution that night in the other Visual portions of their show compared to the other 2 Corps ? Perhaps. But unlikely, as the falls seemed to unglue the Corps a bit from my subjective vantage point, effecting the rest of their show which turned understandably shaky and tenative at best. I recognize here that there is no way to prove my point that falls have no bearing on a Corps Vis. Perf. or GE Vis. scores or if any, they might get credit for fall recovery ( as some others have said ). But because of the subjective nature of judging there is no way to prove that multiple falls have a negative impact on these 2 visual captions either, as conventional wisdom would seem to think would naturally happen, especially given that the other 2 Corps had no falls and appeared to have had no drop off in performance levels in the 2 back to back night shows . I'm not bellyaching here either, as I had no dog in the hunt. But I just thought it was rather curious and peculiar, more than anything else, that's all.

You win. I brought my little checkers to the match..... while you came ready and prepared to play chess. Bravo on the salient points made here to buffer your position and make me rethink some of my position on this.

For 48 hours after they perform their electrifying show, the DCP board shuts down due to lack of complaint threads. Then DCP reopens for business,... and all is right with the world again.

Fergie even claims to have marched with them..... right beside Madonna in line.

No problem. It wasn't the first time ( nor probably the last time ) that I wasted my time on a thread reply or misinterpreted remarks. ' Happens to posters sometimes with my remarks as well. As you said... " no biggie".

This is a fair question it seems to me. The implementation stage might prove problematic however. I could see a benched competitor complaining that they are better than competitors allowed to compete in their Corps. But then again, most benched athletes have probably convinced themselves that they should be starting too.

So you're a guy that met this women in a bar and later scored. Sorry, friend... ' Happens every night of the week, everywhere in the world. And lets not forget, some guys have been known to exaggerate how lucky they got...... 'just sayin'

I couldn't imagine compartmentaliizing my musical tastes in music to just one era. Most people I know listen to music with a span of over 200 years, from the Mozart Era through to music of today, including various genres. To restrict one's Drum Corps music tastes to ( say) a 20 year ( or less ) period, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. But everyone is different.

Good point........ also, do " alternates " pay full fees, same as regular performers in most Corps ? It's a good question, and I don't know the answer. Anyone know ?

Interesting reply. I think that a judge seeing in his head a marching member in a hole is not " quantifiable " though. I think the " hole(s)" are allowed and disregarded for the most part. But I could be wrong. INT gets this judging treatment as well. INT has a full complement of holes. Judges can't see marchers, but they assume that they are there which " completes the picture in their heads " and that they're marching the same way each and every competition as well. This explains their placement each year....( haha.... 'just kidding.)

" cream haterade " ?

If you are serious, would you be in favor if that occured of a return of a portion of monies paid by " benched " Drum Corps performers ? I do know that payment for ( say ) soccer play, does not guarantee more playing time. ( although in the younger youth soccer, they try to get all kids equal playing time irrespective of abilities ) Should Drum Corps ever bench performers ( doubtful ), it would be interesting to see if a portion of fees would be returned to benched marchers or not. I could see this as a boost to some crafty lawyer out there should it ever occur too. ( just what we'd need, huh ? )

I recognize that possibility. It's a fair assumption that some might misinterpret the thread.... any thread for that matter.... if they don't read a thread in it's entirety. It's like someone talking over you before you've completed your comments and as a result they completely misinterpret your thoughts . To be fair, we've all done that on occasion. I know I've made that mistake more than once or twice.

I'm not interested in conspiracy theories. If others are, they are welcome to start their own thread re. drum corps conspiracies that they believe in or don't believe in. I think the topic question I've asked others to respond to ( if they want ) is precise and clear.

No, I 'm not talking conspiracy here. I'm talking specifically about human nature, judges, performance scores, and off the field situations having impact on performance scores.

I was wondering what DCP Drum Corps fans think : Do off the field situations impact Corps performance scores ? I thought that it was just a given that most people would say " of course, off the field events affect performance scores ". But from my readings here the last few months, I'm not so sure that most fans think that off the field events have no bearing on performance scores by judges. So that got me to thinking, a '"what if " question to see what DCP'ers think: Assume for a moment 2 scenarios : A) 1st scenario : a Corps comes down with an unfortunate Flu sickness and as a result they are temporarily compelled to go out in competition with ( say ) 12 holes for a particular show or maybe 2, 3 shows. Assume for a moment that judges are not kept in isolation and as a matter of course they are aware that this Corps ( any Corps ) has had the unfortunate sickness and will be performing in front of them this day in competition with the 12 holes due to sickness............ B) 2nd scenario : same Corps, different scenario : in this case the same Corps does not have the Flu, but instead it has lost 12 members on tour due to internal problems in the Corps and as a result the Corps will be going out with 12 holes. Same number of holes. But in this case for a different reason. Now assume the judges are not in isolation and they are aware that there will be 12 holes in competition from this Corps, but it is for internal strife and not due to sickness. Now, assume for a moment that this same Corps goes out and competes and in both situations the Corps performs identically. But in 1 scenario the 12 holes are due to sickness, the other scenario due to internal strife. Now, would we all agree that in both these situations that the scores should be the same, if the performance was the same ? But that it's logical to presume however that in the case of the 12 holes due to sickness that it's more likely that the judges would be much more inclined to score up their performance than if the holes were due to internal strife ? That this would be understandable, and simply human nature to look at it this way ? That it would be naive to think that judges would not look at the 12 holes due to sickness in the same light that they would if the holes were due to ( say) internal strife ? I think this is certainly plausable and probably what would occur. Thus, if you agree that the judges would naturally be more sympathetic in one situation as opposed to the other, and that this would be reflected at least a little bit in the scores of each judge, then is not true that we can acknowledge that off the field events and situations do indeed have the very real possibility of having an impact on judges scores of Corps in performance ? Thoughts ?

" bad releases " are quantifiable. They can be heard by the Judge. " Holes ", on the other hand, are not quantifiable. They can not be " seen " as if a marcher was present, nor as if the the marcher would have executed the visual move had he or she been present to execute the visual move. No matter the qualification or experience level of the judge. Thus, one can not compare " holes " with " bad releases ".......... " bad releases " are negatively scored. We know this. How ? From judging critiques and judging score sheets....... " holes " due to sickness or whatever on the other hand do not have the same impact on Vis. Perf. scores, nor GE. Vis. scores. How do we know this ? There is no evidence from judging comments via critiques that " holes " in line warranted automatic loss of credit. Nor is there anything on the scoring sheets that judges are to factor into their visual scores as to whether a particular visual component was successfully completed or not due to visual " hole "..... " holes " are not a factor on the judging sheets. The naked eye confirms however that the visual component was NOT fulfilled as designed due to the " hole" or... " holes " ( missing marchers ). The fact that judges factor in off the field events ( sickness ) confirms that " holes " in line have no bearing whatsoever on GE. Vis. nor Vis. Perf. scores except perhaps as generating " sympathy " credits with judges that has been cited before, including this thread by another poster above.

True enough on the Phantom's " Spartacus " performance. I picked it based upon the reception it got from OTHER fans at Finals, probably more so than my own personal choice for this inclusion. While I liked it a lot, and others did too apparently, I think Phantom's " Harmonic Journey " performance is more memorable for me personally or even Phantom's '89 " New World Symphony " Finals Performance. When we do lists like this, it's hard too because there are so many memorable performances from so many Corps that time and space don't adequately permit to list here.

We've all heard fans say :.... " watching a video or listening to a CD of a Corps performance is nowhere near as good as seeing and hearing the Corps performance live. LIVE is 10,000 times better, and you'll love Drum Corps LIVE so much better than videotape. Videotape does not do any justice at all in comparison to actually seeing and hearing these performances live, etc ". Which is of course, absolutely correct. It was true then...... it is true now...... it will probably be so in the future.

It is has been said before that judges do not allow off the field situations to impact the score they give a Corps during a performance competition.. That judges judge simply the performance in front of them. This is of course a misconception and is erroneous. This misunderstanding in fact causes confusion on any given score when some fans are not aware of the impact in scores that off the field events have on a judges score. Judges DO take into consideration off the field events when judging a Corps performance. Some people apparently were not aware of off the field events having an impact on a score in performance competition. Once again, you have given us one more example ( sickness ) of off the field events having an impact on judges when judging a Corps performance in competition. This is not new either, and thanks for sharing. Education is always the best antidote to misunderstanding and confusion.

' hate to use the figure skating analogy, ( but it's appropriate ): if a figure skater in competition does a safe and relatively easy routine, and has no fall downs, that skater almost without exception will best in competition a skater that had a much more demanding routine but unfortunately on a given day had multiple fall downs during the demanding routine. As for " holes", if one is involved in an Art competition and one creates a painting to depict a completed circle, but two of the dots are somehow left out, despite the overall greatness of the rest of the painting, points would be subtracted for the incompletion of the circle that needed to be completed in order to generate the desired effect. If a similar painting had less demand in the painting, but had fully completed elements in the painting, more often times than not, the painting with the fully completed elements would win out over the painting with the noticeably uncompleted elements, despite the greater demand. However, this is not the case in Drum Corps judged competitions at all. Judges ASSUME a completed visual formation has been completed, despite the obvious hole. No points are subtracted for the inability to complete the visual move component as designed. It is ASSUMED that had a marching member been present in that hole that the member would have executed his move well, thus completing the visual design in total for the unit. However, the naked eye tells us a different story. The visual move as designed was not completed successfully ( ala the dots needed in a circle in a painting ). I'm not arguing here that changes should be made in this ( although I believe there should be ), my point is that holes and multiple fall downs have no negative bearing on GE Vis. and Vis. Perf. captions, and quite the contrary, holes and multiple fall downs can indeed result in higher scores in these captions..... when in othere sports and in other art competition venues this would be next to impossible to occur.