wishbonecav

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Rule book: The top 10 scoring corps from Open Class prelims advance to Open Class Finals. At this point, there are 9 SCORING corps. The pass to Finals, at this point, is for the corps that didnt make a score. Bucs, Cabs and MBI. Seeds or no seeds, by rule, you have to make a score to make finals. Of course, Cabs, MBI and Bucs get a pass to Finals...that just makes sense. We have enough season long information to make that determination and can do so comfortably. BUT THE 9 HIGHEST SCORING CORPS should certainly be "in". They went to Prelims. They made a score. It rated in the top 10 of corps at Prelims. Bonus for Kilts and Bush...and a valid enough reason to make it "valid". Send them through.

Absorbing the Westshoremen 15/16 years ago didnt hurt, either. Not to bust up your point, but they actually "hauled ### all over the world" in 97, 98, 99, compared to 94, 95 or 96 (source: corpsreps.com, fromthepressbox.com). A full schedule versus 5 or 7 shows. And they didnt exactly go on the cheap for the staff. I'm not sure they got smart as much as they were in the right place at the right time and made the most of it. Credit for that. Again....regardless....I am going to win the pool. I am in for $10. Joe Caballero

Bottom line (and i do "get it"...i've described it in pretty good detail) is that, without reciprocation, Empire is in a tough spot. Its not a "new" spot by any means....Renegades, MBI, CV, et al have been in that "spot" for years. The part I'm having trouble with is that it is not a wholly necessary spot, at least as it relates to them, if only there was some reciprocation. Like you said, there'd have to be a pretty compelling reason to engage in that conversation/course of action. I'm not sure its (a) compelling enough or (b) been discussed to the point of reaching that conclusion. Re: better placing corps. I assume you mean MBI. They are the only one to ever turn the trick. Good talk, though. I'd share my thoughts at DCA level if i thought it would do any good. I imagine this isnt anything that is really an eye-opener that someone hasnt come up with b4 me. Joe Caballero

Makes the point.... full plate, inside the zone with no need to really entertain anything else. They are really in a decent spot with the ability to say "no thanks" to much of anything else. 10 corps slates with a nice (almost guaranteed) draw.... and it's NOT a criticism of the Cabs. They happen to be in a yes/no position with no real obligation to anything but being the best organization they can be (first) and let DCA figure out the rest (second).

Not a reciprocal situation. No home-and-home reciprocity there. It is a shorter trip up 95 from "the radius" than it is from anywhere else. Further from Carolina, New York, Atlanta or Minnesota, too. Not apples and apples. (saw that one coming )

Cabs (for example) in 2004 went to Waverly, Hershey, Endicott and Syracuse. In 2005-2008 they went to either Rochester or Syracuse in addition to DCA. Since 2008, they havent been outside the radius even once in a complementary situation (other than DCA). That's a long time. The variation is the corps' willingness to support home-and-home reciprocity. Given the ROCK that is the Rochester/Batavia/Syracuse/Ontario drum corps audience, there is no reason that Rochester or Syracuse should not be hosting a July showcase-type show in either Rhino Stadium or MacArthur where as many corps as possible show up and split the gate (with a subsidy for distance traveled), especially since the Finals are now in Maryland. Scranton gets this gig every year in August. A third DCA showcase event is not unreasonable, especially as a reciprocal situation. The support matrix (especially with GRVA) is already in place. And its not unreasonable, either, to expect success. Regardless, I am going to win the prediction pool tomorrow. Mark it down.

I guess the point is that Empire is now in a similar situation to everyone else outside they NY-NJ-PA radius. They are at a similar competitive and financial disadvantage: no shows and no partner corps near them, the need to travel just to get a contest or evaluation, and no real return-the-favor give back by the NY-NJ-PA corps to level it out. The only Open Corps from the NE that traveled outside "the radius" this season were Fusion (to Virginia) and Cadets2 (to Hornell). Carolina traveled inside the radius from the Carolinas THREE times....do you think the Bucs, Hurcs, Cabs could have done the same once between them? This is a tough question...but not one that really requires more than a shrug and a "why would they bother?" DCA is now the Far East(Bucs, Cabs, Hurricanes, Cadets2, Fusion, Bushwackers, Windsor, Sunrisers, Cabs Alumni, Bridgemen) and everyone else, and "everyone else" needs the shows in the Far East more than the shows in the Far East need them. So far, the other corps (MBI, Renegades, CV, Kilts, etc) have figured something out. Empire is adjusting on the fly. What that means competitively will bear itself out. TO THAT END: Saturday Prelims 1. Bucs 96.6 2. Caballeros 95.1 3. Hurricanes 94.7 4. Minnesota Brass 94.4 5. Cadets2 92.4 6. Kidsgrove Scouts 92.2 7. Renegades 89.9 8. Empire Statesmen 89.3 9. Corps Vets 87.3 10. Fusion Core 85.1 11. Kilties 83.8 12. Bushwackers 81.0 mark it down :) Joe Caballero

If its ok with you, I'll be using the Spanish version of my last name from now until Sunday night. Jimmy knows the story of how/why my mom got me into drum corps back in '79. It had everything to do with him and the Cabs. Go get, 'em Sunday morning. Joe Caballero

I am a stone's throw from Tampa. Perhaps a better forum is a sandwich board (that plays video) outside the Republican National Convention?

Get to mini-corps on Friday!

We are the choir. I was hoping my little old post was worth a click through or two from a few in the congregation who might not have yet seen the light

it is pretty ridiculous

SHAMELESS! You go, JM

The point of the post was "hold up with today's sophisticated drum corps crowd". Not "hold up in competition", but meet the high falutin sensibilities of today's sometimes hyper-discriminating audience. it was a tongue in cheek comment. Old school or not, 190 beats a minute or not, symphonic ensemble or not, there's no way you could dismiss it, IMO. I dont care if the top 10 dci corps were on the slate, the crowd...any crowd....would be throwing babies at the end....just like this one did. This material would not be out of place...in fact, it just might steal the show. No scores required. And let's not be too naive...this is no half baked attempt; the Caballeros Alumni dont don the sombrero to go out and just have fun. The point of Flamenco Cha Cha and Espana Cani is to put the horns up and go out and kick some as s. I freakin' LOVE this video....and hope you clicked on it Crazy Joe

Would this show hold up in front of today's sophisticated drum corps crowd? i'm thinking it would

Cabs alumni, Wayne NJ, 2009 on you tube is a good example of turning people on....horns, drums, rifles, Jimmy Russo....and easy for a middle schooler to process. Loud, cool. standing o for 45 seconds before the last note of music is even played. If i knew as a kid that i could be on a stage somewhere in the middle of the summer, basking in the glow of a standing ovation for a performance i just did with 100 of my closest friends.....and i'd get to feel that/do that again the next night and the next and the next....I'm thinking I'd be pretty interested in that.

Ok, ok. Guns down. The Empire discussion was just that....a lively discussion; and i appreciated your points of view and enjoyed the dialogue, including the opportunity to respond with additional information. It's this Hurcs comment...more specifically, the tag on the end of the comment...the damning with faint praise...that was really an unnecessary zing, IMO. "Hurcs show is the best I've seen from them in years." Nice. though it's barely passable and that's actually an improvement over prior years ("i actually enjoy it a little bit")?...not so nice. see what I mean? Thanks for the opportunity to provide an answer, and I'll ask you for a mulligan on my "play in traffic" post. It was also "not so nice."

And when they get there, they get a good nights sleep and travel a few miles to the show site. There isnt any place on the schedule they couldnt leave Hawthorne at 7:30am for and be on time for practice. Ok, maybe one. :) Hawthorne to Rochester was a "holy crap, this trip sucks" kinda trip at 325 miles. Imagine going from Hawthorne to Rochester every weekend? That would make the decision to march a little different, no?

Not sure who you think you are, but the blanket insults and sarcasm? Why bother. You know it all already, so there's no point in hanging out here. The DCI forums might be more your speed. We talk as friends here and sign our names. It's really more a place for grown ups. Maybe you go do something else....there's got to be some traffic somewhere. SORRY MODS...i know, i know....should have been a PM....you can erase it.....having a little fun at mr smart ###'es expense. He's like flounder hahahahahahaha.

If you look at Tampa's last show in Braden (and all the scoring discussions on DCP assumed Thunder was 11th or 12th), then there is no real chasm anywhere down the Open Class list. If Thunder was a non-finalist with that New World show then, pound-for-pound, this might be the best top to bottom slate since Kingston's big yellow corps took the 10th spot in '03. '07 could qualify here, too. Crusaders were a dam* good 10th and there was no shortage of good brass down the page (esp Bushwackers :)

When the nearest show to you is 285 miles from home, that is a different decision than if its within a couple hours drive. To stay at home, find a performance opportunity, support a band program (Webster) that has been a source of members and talent for years and save the cost of putting the busses on the road just to get a score is not a real hard decision. The attendance at Reading would have been no different if ES was there (and the show sponsors saved the appearance fees, putting the additional net in their fundraiser win column). I posted in another thread how Empire is all alone upstate. There are literally no DCA shows closer than 217 miles (Scranton) and NO DCI shows to latch on to. Renegades get more shows with the DCI circuit in their back yard (and on Saturdays and Sundays). Empire has had to create performance opportunities out of thin air while keeping the members interested - no small task. The Darien Lake thing keeps/expands their regional exposure. It's better than a marching band going to Epcot because it has some stickyness to it. And its 60 miles door to door. DCI week is a traditional off week, so sending a contingent to Indy wasnt in conflict with any DCA sensibilities. Empire has tough decisions to make in a landscape that is very different than a few years ago....no Crusaders show (in fact, no Crusaders), no Brigadiers show (and no Brigadiers), no weekend DCI shows (Buffalo, Erie, Rome on a Tuesday night just doesnt work), no hosting partners (Patriots, St Joe's, etc), fewer established shows (Hornell used DCA to sub for a fallout with DCI) and fewer corps willing to make the trek to Rochester - even once - because, frankly, they dont have to.

Right there with you, DA...word for word...even if it means taking a few eggs and tomatoes. Empire never did anything half way. Or even 90-10. It was always all-in, all the time. The uniform represents excellence, entertainment, fearlessness and no-holds-barred. Empire was always DCA's Muhammad Ali, its Apollo Creed...arrogant, confident, flag waving, fun, hated by some and loved at the same time, over the top with swagger and a big punch right behind it. "If you can back it up, it aint braggin'" has worked for 28 years. It HAD to be great, first and foremost on the field, or else it would have just been dismissed as a windbag of hype with no substance. Only way to do that is to have everyone on the same page. The Statesmen aren't great because of the Edge. The Edge is great because of the Statesmen. And the name on the front of the jersey is a helluva lot more important than the one on the back. And so forth. I have a feeling that this is an important weekend for the corps; Friday and Saturday finding that "thing" we are talking about here. And I predict that Sunday night will have that Ali feel to it....they've done the rope a dope, taking a few punches during the season for sure...but they'll get it right...with a flair for the dramatic...and remind us who "the champ" is... and let it all hang out.

That's a good drum corps. Wow, guys and gals.

The season is 10 weeks long (June 30 to Sept 1) with the DCI week traditionally off. A home show plus Scranton (Regional) plus DCA is 3/9 weeks. There's 6 remaining weeks to go to the other guys' home show(s). Hurcs (Barnum), Bucs (Reading show), Cabs (Grand Prix and Kingston) have well attended and well cultivated shows and audiences; regardless the lineup, they are really "good to go" so long as nobody folds and that gives all the NJ-PA corps 7/9 filled weeks without too much hassle. Bush, Fusion, Sunrisers, Windsor, fit in that category, and add the Bayonne show for all makes it 8/9. Boston might be the "special" trip (9/9) and the Rochester show, for all the downstaters, is really a take-it-or-leave-it proposition. Empire (Hornell show) is in a tough spot...all alone upstate with no other show within 285 miles. (217 to Scranton) Brigs, Cru, St Joes, etc....corps that used to fill the dance card just aint there any more. It's pretty much "travel or punt" because the Statesmen need the shows more than the shows need the Statesmen. That was a hard sentence to type, but the crowds at Barnum, Reading and Kingston dont go up or down based on whether or not Empire shows up.