Stu

Hey Jeff, am I reading correctly that you actually have 128,637 posts? I do not know what face to put here or or that you need more

Thanks for the compliment; but if one posts enough, I guess that accidents like this are bound to happen every now and then.

I hope that I am still alive to see the day when you wake up and notice that somehow "you" have become one of the dullards It will happen!

Jeff, I am not saying one way or the other that Regiment deserved the win in '89. I was just pointing out that if one corps gets shafted out of first place one year, and then they are put in first the next year solely on the basis to correct the previous year placement, the second place corps from that next year is thus shafted.

Bingo!!! If an '89 win for SCV was to correct '88, then Regiment more than likely got shafted in '89!!!!

You are the one who stated that he has "never" heard "any" member of BD brag and that the "quiet, professional, class, period" was a characteristic of the organization from the top to the bottom; not me Here is your quote,"...And just for the record, I have never heard any member of BD brag or require the effort to be humble, it's characteristic of the organization from top to bottom. Quiet, professional class, period." I just enjoyed pointing out the fallacy of your statement of "never". And yep, I like picking on BD because dang it, I never got a ring

It is not that I was offended, it is just that you stated that (we) seem to believe that all corps are equal in all ways, that (we) seem to feel that placements should be social and not based on merit which did make me come across as a little touchy , sorry it came across that way. And just for the record ... I was on the field and in the breezeway exiting the stadium in '08 when Regiment was announced as being in first place, and I personally heard many, many, many BD performers (in uniform) shouting the F word as well as other vulgar remarks at Regiment. Now that is what I call quiet, professional, class, period As for BD performers being humble ... the friends I have that have a ring from BD are far from humble; they all sound like that kid in the documentry 11 1/2 Minuets when he says, "Eleven; Eleven Championships Baby". I guess that qualifies as not braging and being humble.

We do not "hate" the Cadets, BD, SCV, Cavies, Crown, Regiment, or Bluecoats; We just want their directors to live by their own commitment, responsibility, and duty to honor the DCI mission statement in which they agreed to be "charitable" to "all" corps withn DCI. Your spin would serve you well as the Congressional Senate Majority leader, but not in this forum!

I appreciate that you put in parentheses the phrase (not necessarily Stu) because you do not know my political, personal, or social standards one iota. I never stated that there should not be a competitive strata in DCI; nor did I ever state that the Government should support the activity; nor did I state that all corps were equal; nor did I state that the corps should be approached as just equal social networks. All of those are putting words in my mouth. Of course competition builds strata and that is what makes for great performances; I love it that BD is sort of the Yankees of DCI (it makes it that much more fun when they place out of first). I also believe that the higher a person or a group attains competitive status the more humble they should become (see David Robinson from the San Antonio Spurs for example). SCV and BD are stalwarts who raise millions in capital for their own corps and they should not be forced to distribute it equally amongst all corps. What I "did" state was that if SCV and BD chose to join a “charitable non-profit youth organization” such as DCI, they absolutely do bear responsibility to help other corps within that same organization with DCI organizational support; in fact that is an integral part of the DCI mission statement. Jersey Surf for example earned the right to be a WC corps, not a regional A corps; the Scouts earned the right to be a WC corps not a AA touring corps; Revolution and Music City have earned the right to be a DCI OC corps and the G7 want to strip them completely out of DCI. THAT is what I said; and that is what is wrong with their proposal because they agreed to take care of "all" corps in DCI when they signed on to the project; so please do not put words in my (our) mouths again.

Because by chosing to be a part of an overall "charitable non-profit organization" called DCI, the G7 made a strict commitment and promise to help out "all" corps' within that organization. DCI is an organization that facilitates venues for all DCI corps; for example DCI facilitated the venue for the OC corps at Michigan City. The G7 want to cut out all OC corps from DCI as well as cut out all DCI funding for those OC venues while still having DCI provide venues for the G7. Without that venue support, the OC corps have no place to go and they cannot afford to both fund their corps and fund contest venues. It would be like multiple churches joining the "council of churches" with some being mega-churces and some being small community churches. No problem with that occuring. However, the problem arises when the mega-churches in the council begin dumping on the less fortunate churches in that same council who need assistance. What is it about "caritable" that you do not understand!?! If the G7 want to leave, they can do what they want when they want; but as long as they are a member of DCI, which is by definition a "charitable non-profit organization" they should be held accountable to their agreement to be "charitable" to all others within the organization!

I am not saying that it is quite as complex as the movie music example; and the drill is certainly not written completely first "then" the music is crowbared in as an afterthought; but there was a DCI documentery short put on one of the recent DVDs which goes along the line of the process that I was refering to. Bret Kuhn is discussiong how more counts were added to a visual impact point and he had to write percussion for that increase in counts. This visual driving the musical changes happens fequiently on a daily basis during the summer, so much so that near the end of the season, the music does not seem to follow "musical" sense. Also, even though it was a hoax that the Cavaliers drill was written "first' then the music plugged into the drill, I will guarantee you that the drill dictated "how" the music was implimented into the overall design process instead of the other way around; especially as the season progressed. That is why their music sounds so much different than say the SCV Copland show in '09 where the music drove the drill; it is also an indication of how the Cavaliers create some really awsome drill moves but sometimes their music sounds rather disjointed.

Attended the Open Class show finals week in Michigan City, IN. The place is packed and the crowd roars! Apparently you were not there at WC Finals when the Troopers took the field on Saturday; the place was packed and the crowd roared! Where are you getting your information that kids are not showing up at these corps' for auditions or corporate sponsors are not helping lower corps'? The Troopers are one onf the most financially sound corps' while Phantom Regiment is still in the red and nearly had to liquidate their assets a few years back! Music City has a large influx of cash from the company The Band Hall! Kids are auditioning all over the country for OC corps'! And you say that you have no sympathy when the G7 want to cut these units off at the knees!!!!

Johnnytech: Please address pp. 9 - 11 of the G7 proposal where it relagates all other WC corps' to sub standard AA an A classes (when they have rightfully earned to be in the same class as the G7); and p. 12 of the proposal where the G7 want to eliminate all, and I mean all, support for Open Class corps' leaving them without any DCI support whatsoever while of course taking care of the BDB and SCV Cadets.

Fred; here is what happens in movie music: The movie composer comes up with a bunch of general musical ideas. Lets just deal with two; the first is the main actor theme (husband muisic) and the second is supporting actress theme (wife music). That music stays is in raw form and is shelved until the final cut of the movie is done by the director. The movie director shows the final cut of a particular scene to the music composer that has a time line meter bar graph showing the scene in length in hundredths of seconds. From time line "0" to time line "7.62" seconds there needs to be an eerie sound while the husband looks perplexed and turns to walk toward the woodpile; from time line "7.62" to time line "23.49" seconds there needs to be suspenseful music based on the husband theme starting soft and building with intensity and also accelerating as the pace of the actor intensifies; at time line "23.49" the music should stop abruptly without resolution just as the actor freezes; from time line "23.49" to "26.04" nothing but silence while the actor has a close up and yells NO!; a loud crass musical impact should occur at time line 26.04 at the point where the body of his wife is shown on screen and that impact should last from time line "26.04" to "27.36" at which point the next scene begins that requires a serine love theme musical sequence based off the wife's theme that reflects the actor's memories of his wife. However, when the movie is shown to the trial audience they discover that the sceen of the husband running is a bit too long for the audience; so a cut is made at time line "19.07" and "2.07" seconds is removed which causes the music composer to quickly rescore that moment. So, taking that example and put it into drum corps context where there will be general musical ideas in which the visual design moves, counts, and visual pace take precedence in the show development process which causes the visual elements to dictate the actual musical moments on the field; then you will begin to see the connection as to why a lot of DCI music has become disjointed.

What gets me about this type of situation is that the band directors have no problem whatsoever splitting the concert season up into three or four various size groups from the best (and smallest) ensemble being the symph winds to the least talented (and ususlly largest) concert band. Why then would they have a problem splitting the marching band in the same manner by creating a competitve band of say 150, and then having a pep/parade band consisting of the entire 300? All 300 could go on the trips; all 300 could march the parades; all 300 could rotate in and out of the half time; but the competitive band would consist of the best 150 with shadows who could challange their respective counterpart at any given point in the season; thus always giving the entire 300 an equal chance to be in the competative program. If it is feelings that they are worried about, then put all 300 in one concert band so that there is not one concert group better than another; if it is marching rehearsal time that is a concern, that is why you have the shadow system.

For what it is worth, a drill writer friend of mine has explained to me how the music in DCI has gotten so choppy over the past few years. Normally the music is written first and the drill is designed around the music; there might be some addition or subtraction of some measures here or there to accommodate more counts in a move, but the music is the primary driving force. However, a new technique was introduced a few years back that resembles the way movie music is written. In movies, thematic music is written in general terms, then it is left alone while the movie is written and edited; once the movie goes through the final edit the director and the music composer discuss what theme goes where and identify specific impact points based on a time line. That process is now somewhat followed in developing some, not all, but some DCI shows. As the season progresses, the music is being morphed around the visual elements instead of morphing the visual around the musical elements. There is no argument that there have been quite a number of really cool visual moments in recent years, but when one listens to the final product without seeing the drill, the music sometimes comes across as disjointed. If a movie soundtrack was lifted directly from the film it would sound horribly disorganized as stand alone music; so that is why the CD containing movie soundtracks are recorded as separate "real" musical arrangements which vary greatly from what actually appears in the movie.

I was un aware that you work in the industry, so will defer to your expertise on the demographics of the actual ticket sales. All I was basing my view on was: a) my personal observation being on the field at a U2 concert surrounded "mainly" by people in their early twenties to mid-thirties (with some teens and older people in the mix); and b) I am sure that the younger teen crowd along side me either used their parents credit card or had their parents purchase the tickets (which would somewhat skew the demographic percentage of just looking at the age of who buys the ticket).

Only because the Federal Government forced them to do that by creating Title IX. Otherwise, the Division I University Mens Football and Mens Basketball teams would be doing the same thing to the NCAA that the G7 are trying to do to DCI.

And those auditioning for spots in major symphonies compete with each other to get hired. As for the pop analogy Blue Devils = U2, Cavaliers = Madonna (could not resist the irony), Cadets = Rolling Stones. By the way you are misinformed about the youth not knowing U2; I went to a U2 concert the last time they were touring the States and was on the field with most people who were in their teens twenties and thirties. Johnny Cash, just before he died, played at the Woodstock II concert, he was featured on VH1 as well as MTV, and he had a huge growing teen fan base.

Easy fix: Regional tours until July, then National tour toward the Championship city by rotating Finals every six years between y1) CA, y2) NY, y3) CO, y4) GA, y5) TX; and y6) NJ. Then start the rotation over again. The diehard fans in the West can go to CA and CO; the diehard fans in the Midwest can go to IN and TX, and the Diehard fans in the east can go to GA and NJ. Everyone can see all the corps’ each year at the Quarterfinal theater broadcast as well as the Fan network.

And this is why non-profit Boards like DCI should not be associated in any way, shape, or form with any individual corps; and that the corps' directors, including the OC directors, should: a) only be allowed to elect the DCI Board; and b) only be allowed to sit on the Board in an Advisory capacity. This is the same reason why many individual corps go amiss; when the Corps Director is also the Board President; when the Corps Tour Director is the Board Vice President, etc... huge conflicts of interest arise.

I agree that it is competition that drives this activity; just like competition drives the subjective judging activity of Ice Dancing at the Olympics. I also agree that DCI would die on the vine without this competitive element amongst a multitude of corps because we are a small niche relative to the rest of the world. However, the G7 directors apparently see that Madonna, U2, The Rolling Stones, and all of the other stalwart pop groups pull in millions of ticket buyers each year and feel that they, as the stalwart DCI groups, can follow suit. They probably also see Brass Theater / Blast as a trial run in which they have studied to make sure that they do not make the same mistakes (ergo keeping the G7 show outside in big stadiums with fireworks, smoke, mirrors, and crowd interaction just like Madonna). I believe that the G7 plan will fail if implemented; but the G7 see themselves a becoming the next pop music icons that can sustain through the years with superficial pop entertainment because that is what sells tickets to the rest of the world. They want to become pop stars because that is where most of the money is being spent by the consumers.

While it is true that organizations need to exist in the black and not in the red, by law, non-profits cannot retain a high percentage of capital in reserve (do not know the exact percentage) otherwise it appears to the IRS that they are hording money instead of using it for their stated charitable goals. Some major non-profit hospitals around the country grow their infrastructure by leaps and bounds each year due to this situation. If I remember correctly, Star ran into this type of problem back in the eighties when they had to continuously buy new show props, doubling the size of their contra line, etc… so that they would not come across to the IRS as hording money.

That is why if YEA gets to do the events; Crown Tickets gets to do the tickets; System Blue gets to do the clinics; ad infinitum, the G7 can eliminate all DCI corporate support for the other corps', and thus turn this into a self generating machine for a select few (ie the G7).

Simple soultion: Bring back regional only first tour June - early July and national second tour early July - Finals for "all" corps; with the advent of the Fan Network everybody can see all corps shows the entire month of June on their computers; starting the second weekend in July have major DCI shows with all corps in Denver second weekend, San Antonio third weekend, Atlanta fouth weekend; Allentown first weekend in Aug, (with OC on Fridays and WC on Saturdays) and Indy Finals the entire second week. The corps can spread out to various local shows within driving distance throughout the weekdays while on trek to the next major city. With this pattern, there is strength in numbers so that all corps can help each other by sticking together. As long as each corps can prove that they are being financially resopnsible, if some of the lower level corps need a little support DCI helps defrey some of their tour costs (in line with the charitable mission of a non-profit). However, this charitable system of sticking together and figuring out a charitable solution does not seem to gel with the minds of Hop, Gibbs, Fiedler, or the rest of the G7 directors.