whystarwhy

James I'm with you on that one. 2004 ECJ was the best Div II Jazz show I've ever seen. 2005 may have been performed better, but I'm partial to '04.

I always enjoyed ALL white, or ALL black unis. Targets are the closest to it. Black uniforms, or black pants? I notice Black pants are winning (takes the focus off the legs). I have come to love black pants and a white upper body, or headwear. Corps that have this scheme look as if they "float" (again because the upper body SHOULD move the least, and white pants would draw attention to the lower half). Off the top of my head I don't know of any Div II/III corps that have that look, but it'd be a great idea.

What show are you talking about here?

Push yourself..."you get out what you put in"

Oh, I acknolwedge the other reasons, I'm simply exploiting how competition is most important nowadays. I mean, what else are most topics on this forum about anyway? It is the biggest difference I see between both divisions and I'm basing an argument on our current trends about what should determine the divisions (I personaly wish that they didn't range from less-talented to most-talented, but that's what it has come to). About Div II corps moving to Div I, I feel that there should be a very narrow criteria in an effort to preserve Div II. To spell out my vision for you all, I want to regulate the divisions (according to size, rehearsing, and touring schedule) of an activity that is governed by the most subjective judging system on this planet. Seeing as the judging is so subjective, however, I see no reason to stop corps from continuing to practice both how, when, and what they want, and perform where, with who, and for how long as they want...the definition of the divisions can be just as blurry as judging. *Warning* Complete change of view from previous posts: So, without changing the world, I can now admit that any corps who wants to go to Div I should do it when they want to and it should be for their own reasons. I don't even think DCI should question any corps' desire to go Div I. ####, it was fun to compete an extra day at Quarters. They should put together an ADVISING body to be like "hey, we told you so" if/when things go south, but in the scheme of things, it should be up to the corps itself, right? This country has too many silly rules as it is, no need to add more to an activity that should be focused on education and entertainment.

What I said: ...meant that a Div II corps that wins SO many times and is SO much better than the rest, should move to Div I to face the challenges. someone else said: Ok, ok, so there may be 15, 10, or even 5 placements to go. You're missing the point. At least your logic shows that Div II's have much more room for growth, while Top Div I corps don't have as far to go. (Besides, DCI judges 'rate' and 'rank' throughout a season...if they truly competed in a division, the #'s would probably not work out to the -15 estimate) Now about the corps statement... Yea that's great, but I'm not sure that the Miss America parade is at the top of a new member's list. Let's face it, competition is the main focus of every corps nowadays, whether or not a corps does a few extra events, or if its in writing. Corps mission statements also don't explain the intense rehearsing, less-than-par living conditions, and occasional transportation failure. Some things might scare away people new to the activity, and I'm thinking that a lot of weight placed on competition might not look too great.

No, because the above quote was in reference to a Div II corps, remember? There are about 24 more placements to go after winning Div II, so there is definately room for more improvement with new challenges. In your example there isn't any higher challenge besides pushing your own creativeness and performance. There was talk about creating a "World Class" division (around the time when electronics were being implemented) designed for the Top Div I corps who's vision was going in another direction from the rest. It seems that electronics were welcomed tfar more than anyone could anticipate, but I could see the same thing happening when Woodwinds are up next as far as the "new thing." In this case I would plea with the Spartans saying "c'mon, give someone else a chance. You need more of a challenge, it's time to go Div I." Sort of like WGI units getting bumped up (or down) to a division to where they are more equal among the competition...and that isn't even a CHOICE on the unit's behalf. *poor grammar edited*

I'm ok with nobody agreeing with what I'm saying...if you all did, the BoD probably would feel the same way and these rules would be in place today. This is just my vision of how the activity should be divided. really?? I would like to take you up on that and make a poll, because I'm almost positive the results are otherwise. I won't do a poll, however, because not every corps is represented on this forum. Again, some DO travel more than 4 weeks, but its not common. Again, according to my list a move to Div I should be made once EVERYTHING on the list is happening, not just a couple. Again, I ask WHY it took changing divisions for the Blue Stars to "get their program ready." For that matter, I think most Div II/III's could "step up" their program just for the sake of it and remain in the same division. Yes there are, yes I do, and yes it is. Looks what's happened to the Div I corps who don't have enough members!! They fall way behind in the competitive aspect! I honestly believe that several of the lowest-placing Div I corps would be more "matched" at a Div II show. Even though its not about winning, its still about performing the best you can, and the Top Div II's are comparable with those corps. Also, can you just imagine how exciting the activity would be if there were 4 top-notch Div II corps with 120-135 members each year!? I remember reading about how many students audition for Div I and don't make it...the number ends up being enough to fill every Jr. corps active today. We need to keep high-quality corps in Div II and fill them with more members by attracting them to something great, just not AS great. Alas, I have digressed...my post is becoming more and more about how I feel Div II SHOULD be, and less and less about who should become Div I. In an effort to save the Topic, as things stand today, I think that any corps who wants to move to Div I to get 1) more money, 2) more exposure, and 3) the goal of performing more than once during Finals week, should definately go for it.

So the only difference with the "jump" to Div I in this case would be that DCI determines their tour and pays them more for each show? I'm not sure what else a corps could do to get their program "ready" if they already tour as long, and rehearse as much as a Div I corps. If you're talking about the quality of the corps, why did they have to wait until becoming Div I to improve that? To me it seems like there should be a distinct difference in the divisions, be it talent, or modus operandi. With the current rules, right now the two can blurr. So back to the original topic, I feel that Div II corps should move to become Div I when ONLY the following apply: 1) The corps consistently has 135 members (at least 2-3 years in a row) 2) When a move-in and/or 9-9 rehearsal schedule of some sort is in place 3) The corps tours for more than 4 weeks 4) Corps wants to travel to new places with greater competition That being said, I am OK with seeing a corps in Div II who only fulfill both 1&2 AS LONG AS they don't capture 4 consecutive titles or something. On a side note, I am unhappy with Blue Star's decision to become Div I although I wish you guys luck. I enjoyed seeing them compete in II/III. I think there's plenty of great corps in Div I already and Div II/III will just get less and less exciting if corps keep changing divisions.

From DCI.org = "Division II corps have memberships of no less than 80 and no more than 135 members." You know what, I stand corrected. Before the new member number rule was implemented, there was a sentence that said "these corps typically tour the last few weeks of the season" or something close to that. Even then, it said "typically." The only thing WRONG with taking a full tour, is that most Division II's DO NOT. I consider this to be somewhat of a disadvantage (although scores reflect otherwise) to the other corps who don't rehearse/tour as intensly. BUT at this point there is nothing wrong with it, technically, so I will rest that case. I have a new question: What is a corps with 135 members, move-in, and full tour doing in Div II? It seems a bit strange to compete with a competitor having 80 members, 2 night a week rehearsals, and a 2.5 week tour, doesn't it?

Pride in one's corps also means respecting the posting-policies of the organization. I realize that many of you put a "disclaimer" about your posts, but it really doesn't matter. If people constantly read things they don't like by members from a particular corps, they will tend to look at that corps differently (I'm not saying they will pretend that the corps' views are the same, but will definately feel differently about the members within the corps itself). It's psychological...plain and simple. Such disclaimers are almost as useless as a politician saying "my views in no way reflect my political party," which is impossible. As I'm sure many of you have disagreed with something Whystarwhy says, we could get along quite well in real life. I would rather you dislike that name, then associate me with any/all of the corps I used to be in and possibly dislike others from the same places.

Thank you for disclosing that info, but now you're just proving that there's not a fine line (technically) between Div I and Div II...those two corps you mentioned have been planning to eventually become Div I (Blue Stars having succeeded), and have employed a model for that transition. This means that Blue Stars, for all its worth, has been a Div I corps for awhile in both thought and operation, and the only thing that will change is an "official" acceptance to the DCI team. For the other corps that seem to do just fine while taking the "part-time approach" that Div II's should be taking, my original question remains.

There were more Open class corps 30-40 years ago because there were simply more active CORPS. Now I have a few things to say as far as the pros and cons of switching divisions are concerned. What is the purpose of a Div II corps? As stated on the DCI's website, they can be the same size as Div 1 but typically tour less. Does this say anything about ability level? No, but let's face it, the Divisions USUALLY follow a trend where lower placing DIV III corps have younger, less experienced members, while the upper placing Div I corps have older, more experienced members. *(That being said, I don't want to see posts about the Div III on the "cusp" that out-perform Div II's, nor do I want to see posts about Div II's that rival Div I's. Yes, these things happen, but the majority of corps follow the "ability" trend) What happens when more and more corps become Division I and there are fewer and fewer Div II/III's to do the TEACHING of younger members? Yes, every now and then you will hear of talented performers from a decent High School program who can make (even "walk into") a top Div I corps. However, most of the Div II/III's serve as an introduction to drum corps for those who haven't had any exposure. You will see a completely different group of members in most corps every few years. The Top Div I corps can afford to age-out almost 1/3 of their members each year, and then get a new "batch" of equally (or better) qualified performers. Div II corps, however, lose the same amount (mostly to other corps, only small percentage age-out), and are replenished with the same less experienced members from before. There is no denying this happens, it is just the way it is. With all this in mind...my question is why should the successful Div II corps (like Blue Stars, ECJ, Spartans, etc.) forgo their place as educators of younger members? Why exclude the multitude of kids who can't take out 3 months of their spring/summer for move-in and tour? Div II corps are in place for a reason and I think its a bad idea to mess with that. Another thing, I understand that "winning" isn't always the important part, but I do believe in giving your members a fighting chance for success. If you consistently end up at the bottom of your competition...maybe you should evaluate means of instruction and/or show design. You must change a lot to succeed in Div I and many corps might have to change how they operate (which made them successful in Div II in the first place). If they aren't ready for that, or don't know what's coming, it will be a worse place for the corps to be in.

they have a lot of good LOOKING percussion instruments. Keyboards can sound like toys and you must take EXTRA care in tuning battery instruments. Head selection is extrmely important...as is with every drum, but the wrong head on a dynasty can give you headaches.

I'm not forgetting because they weren't in my pick. Yes, 2003 was the year for dirty corps. Just because you win, doesn't mean you're incredible...simply better than the rest. Don't get me wrong, the turn to front field and horn pop secured in my mind that they were the champions, however. No other corps seemed to have that drive. Just not my fav show. head to head? Esperanza came out on top every time. Don't forget, the top 3 by prelims were each seperated by .3 Semis show rained out = good for some corps, bad for others (man, Spartans have had a hard time with rain, eh? 2003/2004 come to mind)

1998 ECJ (for the talented mr. trumpet solo man) 1999 Spartans (for the "cross" that paid homage to Star '91 (at least that's what I took it as) and in turn Spirit paid homage to in '02) 2000 SCVC (for the sheer execution) 2001 Seattle Cascades (for the awesomeness of that show) 2002 Magic (for the fact that they were actually considered Div II) 2006 Academy (" ")*** ***= Reason Pending.

cool man, that pretty much sums things up right there. good call.

There's some stuff from those corps in 2005 on google videos..... I have no idea about this year though..... Yes yes, Academy has a wonderful Podcast from the March camp. Spartans though?? Please please tell me if someone finds anything from 06!

they were incredibly loud. drill had great GE moments* (moments, mind you). there were a lot of loud impacts (again, loud). most of the show had the same feel throughout the music scoring and didn't "clense the pallet" enough. not the best, but an entertaining show that peaked too soon.

'cause early morning shows (even ones you call grand) are a waste. and it also happens to be the show at which they give out that most meaningful of awards, the disney. Hmm, first of all that seems like a silly thing to tell a corps...anytime. Who told the corps that!? Any Spartans around to clarify? (actually I never see any on here, so I'm probably "preaching to the choir") I do agree, however, that every show is just as important. If you hype any particular show, things can go South real fast. That second sentence is probably correct. DCI has seen countless times how the team in 1st gets nipped at some point and this time it was finals (yes I still call it finals, regardless of the title, its the last show people). Now about that next comment. Wow. Are you just really upset about having to play with the sun in your eyes? or did your corps not make it to Saturday or something? If the success of your own performance requires the aid of a dark sky than you're truly not genuine in your performance. I never hear any 13-24 place corps, who perform in the afternoon on quarterfinals, bicker and argue about the time of day. Oh yeah and you must be right, because earning the 2/3 Trophy and being deemed "Champion" is not as meaningful as the other titles on Thursday. Let's face it, the idea was lame and they probably didn't consider having different Gold Medalists and Champions. Last year was the first time the two titles were split and we shouldn't pretend that the Gold Medal is anything new. The last show (yes, probably because the Spartans thought they had everything locked up) was taken by the Jazz, and they hold THE title. Saturday morning blues, get over it! With the newer Finals week schedule at least you now have an extra day of rehearsal AND get to see some great drum corps later Saturday night! I do, however, agree with anyone who is upset with decent stadiums or lack-there-of. Drill is meant to be seen from a fairly high elevation, and the past 2 Finals Stadiums were not adequate. They are even lower than most high school stadiums at shows on tour! At least this year EVERYONE is in the big stadium. back to topic (oooooooops) can't see Spartans, "video is currently unavailable" Academy = looking great, can't wait to see the final product!

Here is your chance to talk about your own corps without anyone else making comments about how you have a biased opinion. BIASED OPINIONS WANTED! What was your favorite drill move (or one you'd like to call attention to) of each show you've marched?

Yes, this is all good, but you are "preaching to the chior." The idea behind this Topic is to find ways to help us get that message out to people, and DCI Today would do that.

I'm not sure if the activity needs MORE drummers....they usually constitute a majority of auditionees. I do think that corps today need BETTER drummers. I've been impressed with the individual-indoor-type drumming and tricks, but c'mon...some of these lines just can't play together. The first thing to bother me as far as quality in concerned is a snareline...and that's usually what ruins a good show for me. There are many shows where drum solos seem "out of place," so I wouldn't be a fan of having more of those types of solos. There are, however, plenty of corps who showcase the drumline in one way or another, especially now that there is more emphasis on the visual element to shows. For the most part, I also think the focus of a drumline for a full production in today's 11 minutes shows can put a grinding halt to the pacing of a show.

hate to break it to you, but there are several of those "pods" with the "corps-surfing" members during the drum feature. Do you have the Finals recording? There is an overhead view during that part and you should be able to see all of them. The contra's body movements are my favorite during that part I just found out that the Bluecoats '05 "log drum" sound was split between the marimbas. It pays to listen to the audio commentary :).

Have you ever enjoyed a corps that had an interesting show or more demand but didn't quite pull it off at finals? Each year I pick my personal favorite "Top 3" and I've been noticing more and more that the winning team isn't always among them. Of course I can recognize the achievement at the top, but sometimes they perform at a high level because they do what they do the best...not necessarily the most difficult. Often times I "look past" the actual performance of a corps and pay attention to the design and writing of a show (I've been there on the field...some performances just aren't that great, but I've been a part of very cool shows). Let's just say I won't be a judge anytime soon, but I'm curious how ya'll think. This is not limited to Div 2/3, in fact I'm not looking for any corps names to be brought up anyway.