Lieut. General Effect

But would I be disappointed in the end if Phantom Regiment didn't finish in the top 2 ? No. Not in the least. The DCI judges are entitled to their professional opinion as to who is " better ". But I reserve the right to myself as to which show I " like the best ". And I really like Phantom Regiment's show this year.

A couple of quick snap shot impressions ( It's late ) of the Corps in Worcester EAST COAST JAZZ........thought they were entertaining and MUCH improved from early July. Nice music.....fits the talent level of the Corps perfectly. Nice solists, good drumline and guard. Closer was a gas... nice ovation from the appreciative crowd too. KIWANIS KAVALIERS.....different look both uniform wise and show wise..... I'm not too keen with their music.....seemed to difficult for the members ability level, and the drum line parts didn't seem to fit with the music TROOPERS........small brass line that projected well. Corps still marches and plays proudly......nice closer. I enjoyed them. So didn't the crowd here. ' Hope to see them back in Mass. next year. SEATTLE CASCADES.....large brass line... good tonal quality in the brass line.....well schooled in brass technigue..... musically unfulfilling however. for this fan.... incoherent theme went nowhere with the audience in my section.......closer boring... tepid show with no musical impact points to speak of and this generated a tepid crowd response. at the end..... SPIRIT......saw them in July....they have discarded the show banners....they seemed a little flat today....this corps needs to step it up this week in my opinion as a finalist slot is by no means a guarantee. " Luck be a Lady " was nice....hard working drum line and a good one...... BLUE KNIGHTS.....deep, dark, lower brass line was terrific......loved the drum charts played.....this Corps was a pleasant surprise for me. Some real innovative musical nuances being done by this Corps....tuba line was awesome in the opener......and the closer completed a well designed dark show pulled off rather well, I thought. SCVANGUARD......reports of this corps a shadow of itself is just dead wrong in my opinion.... The visual design lacks complexity compared with some other Corps, true.....but the Corps has clarity in the brass line and more controlled volume than other Corps......musically, RCM was a real treat for this fan, and the Corps marching technique still seems a notch above other Corps......loved the closer musically...... BOSTON CRUSADERS......nice show from this Corps this year. Good use of color in the flags.....pleasing music, pleasing drill, albeit not breaking any new ground here either......great finish of show as closer works really well both musically and visually. Nice overall package this year....Corps seemed to want to please the fans this year with their show.....I'd say they succeeded with this fan. PHANTOM REGIMENT......what a GREAT show Phantom has this year.....a couple of dropped pieces of equipment could not damper the fans love for their show. Recognizeable music that offered just the right amount of novelty and adaptation for innovative purposes, yet maintaiining the integrity of Gershwin's work brought to Brass and percussion. I don't care where the judges place this Corps this year. They are my personal favorite Drum Corps show for 2005.

If you can't accept the judges scoring, then don't sweat it. Just don't accept it. I was at the Worcester show today, and the SC Vanguard was VERY entertaining. I gave up long ago trying to figure out the judges scoring. SC Vanguard does not have the visual design, with sufficient visual complexity, this year to advance into the top 6 or so. That said, I thought that musically they were very entertaining. More so, in fact ,than in previous years when the judges actually had them placed higher overall. The Blue Knights were closer to SCV than SCV was to the Boston Crusaders, according to the overall judges score. I wouldn't disagree with that today. That said, I enjoyed SCV's Russian Christmas Music Theme this year, and even thought the ending was every bit as good as that played by SCV in the late 80's as their opener. SCV has a very solid percussion line, and overall the Corps still exudes the class one has come to expect from this Corps. This year's show will be played by me with a download for sure, as it is very pleasing to the ear in my opinion.

So YOU have decided to " close out the argument ". Ok. Bye.

Hey, if you're happy with the " no show " and you are happy with the " no show " on the streaming of the show on a delayed basis, and are happy that these people are a " no show " last night and even into noontime today,( and perhaps beyond )in communicating for 24 hours and counting, then that's fine with me. Just be a little more tolerant of paying subscribers like us that think their communications surrounding the slip up in Allentown and their being AWOL in updates for almost 24 hours now here is inexcuseable. Maybe you can donate some extra money to problems in" other parts of the world ' and extra money for a clerk at DCI to type in an update . If we " valued what we had " we did not have to pay extra for this premium service . We just want more than an empty screen and a blackout on info for over 24 hours for a paid service, that's all. You are more than willing to defend DCI for THEIR screw up and lack of followup for 24 hours, but are intolerant and impatient with the payng fans on this. So be it.

Absolutely. If you signed up for Premium channels with your cable company that trumpeted these premioum channels, and then the technology broke down and you didn't get the premium channels they heavily advertised to draw you in, most here would get a refund or an adjustment on their bill. So yes, I expect an adjustment to my bill. I'm tolerant of a non deliivery of an advertised service. Provided the seller is tolerant of my wishes not to pay for a service promised and not delivered. This can reach an amicable solution. A recognition that the seller could not deliver as promised the service as advertised and a partial or complete refund to those subscribers who did not get the service they were priomised. Subscribers certainly have the freedom to decline such refund. But the others are entitled to it, no question about it.

How do we know that ? Is is too much to ask that they get back to us last night or this morning before noontime as they said they would ? There is no excuse not to even have posted a " we are working on it " post last night or this morning. Remember, as far as we know, the DCI Pass site still has the ability to communicate messages to it's subscribers. But the " we are working on it " post hasn't even come in yet. Sorry, bud, no excusees for this. I'm guessing you are taking a cavalier approach to this because you are not a paying subscriber. If you are a paying subcriber, I'd love to sell you a product, because you are easy to please when the product is not delivered as promised and the guys who sold you the product arn't around as they said they would be later.

I'm in total agreement that these people needed to put something on the website explaining why they could not do what they said they were going to do when things went kaput in Allentown. They said they would post some things from the show when they got back to their Hotel. Well, it's now almost noontime the next day, and we are still waiting for either those audios, or videos. or at least an explanation as to why we are not getting them, or why these people did not get back to us after the show as promised. What they did is inexcuseable. I was patient and understanding with their original explanation that they could not provide live coverage last night. These things do happen. But they made a bad situation much worse, by not getting back to us after the show as promised, nor providing us an explanation last night as to why they could not even do that. That is unforgiveable, and my patience is waning rapidly with DCI. It's a shame because the DCI Pass Concept is a brilliant idea, and there are some nice features to it. But they are not delivering the goods as promised, and they have been incommunicato with the subcribers since yesterday afternoon.

Yes, it was" Woodwinds " before " Bugles " in the Drum Corps movement in this Country. And the intoduction of the " Bugle " to Drum Corps was a move that met staunch resistance too. VERY staunch as historical records tell us from The Smithsonian Institute Museum in Washington, DC. I have a friend in Connecticut that up until a few years ago marched in a Fife and Drum Corps. ( he played snare drum ). He used to tell me that the Bugle introduction and increased cadence in the modern Drum and Bugle Corps were too radical for him, and were a perversion of the traditions of Drum Corps. I could not have disagreed with him more. He's a bright and educated fellow. But it sort of puts into perspective this whole argument doesn't it ? You'd think from listening to some, that Drum and Bugle Corps were invented from scratch. I'm in agreement with many of the Drum and Bugle Corps " traditionalists ' on many of their frustrations. But sometimes it's helpful to know that the introduction of the " Bugle ' to the Drum Corps movement was a radical change in instrumentation itself. And a " Woodwind " is what the Bugle replaced in some quarters of the Drum Corps movement in America. Even the Blue Devils Drum and Bugle Corps have their roots from a " Woodwind " and Drum Corps. Right from within their own organization. Others do too. Just something to think about during these spirited discussions. ' Hope that some of my friends who have been with this activity as participants and fans for so many years can find a way to overlook the changes that frustrate them and remain fans. But they'll get no argument from me. These fans have earned the right to express themselves in the manner they choose for all they have given to this activity.

The most " radical " move in the Drum Corps tradition was to replace the Fife with the Bugle. For some, that was too " radical " a move, and to this day, there are " traditionalists " who refuse to accept the Bugle in the Drum Corps " evolutionary cycle. For a frame of reference, there are currently more Fife and Drum Corps in New England, Maryland, Virginia, than there are than there are Drum and Bugle Corps in these regions. As to " copying ", imitation is the greatest form of flattery. In America, The Marching Bands trace their origins to the Marching Fife and Drum Corps that predated the Marching Bands in this Country according to the Smithsonian. So before there were Marching Bands in this Country, there were " Marching Drum Corps ", ( Fife and Drum Corps ) and they marched on roads and fields in Colonial America. " Hope this helps.

You make some valid points. I've always wondered though why so many genre's of music seem to be untouched by Drum Corps. Why is " Rock " for instance avoided as an avenue to explore ? Heaven forbid......even........( gulp)...." Country Music ? Or " Rap " ? " top 40 " ? Even " Alternative Rock " ? even " March Music " ?Why are these more popular genres so out of favor ? There has been some overtures to these genre's, but only in a very cursory way. It seems to me that Corps have done the Classical Music and Jazz and even 50's , 60's Folk for WAYYYY too long. I'm looking for REAL innovation. I'd love to see a Corps break the mold and do more " popular " genres. No, not Brittney and that ilk, but lets face it, Jethro Tull ( Cadets ) and the New Christy Minstrels ( Carolina Crown ) and " Classical Gas " Crossmen , and Bohemian tributes, etc, are to the general audience members so ....60' ish . Now the Cadets are doing a show that leaves some scratching their head, while every LSD Acid Head is calling out " groovy ". What's with the recent attraction of the Dead Composers, and the 60ish type music? Can't we find some mainstream popular musical genres to explore that are more into the the 21st century than music from the 13th to the 20th centuries ? Just asking mind you, not trying to flame

True, but my point was in response to the poster above that implies that because things are " innovative " or " new ", they will be seen as a " classic " some day. Many things that a few years back that were " innovative " had the same degree of support among the progressive and " open to change " fans at that time. But clearly, they were failed experiments according to most people today. The lesson here is that some of the things that are being done in Drum Corps today, for example some" obscure " musical offerings by some Corps, might be seen as the low point in the activity a decade or two down the road. In my own personal opinion, DCI Corps of recent years have advanced the activity tremendously in the visual arena. The Cavaliers are a perfect example of that. That said, although the muscianship level has advanced from earlier generations, it is questionable whether today's Corps have advanced the activity to the level that appeals to the general audience member that perhaps does not have the well trained ear. Perhaps the next " evolutionary " stage will find the activity to have properly blended the visual advances made with musical offerings that will appeal to both the marching member, the trained musician AND the general fan who is perhaps taking in this activity for the first time. Without naming names, there are a few Corps that seem to put the audience as a priority when they put their show together in the off season. There are a few others whose design teams have publically stated that the audience is way down the list of considered things when the show is designed in the off season. Should these Corps advance in placements, it may bode well for those members, but it calls into question whether DCI is giving lip service that it wants to generate popular appeal and grow the audience base. From my perspective, that can not be done. DCI will either move toward a more populist way, or it will remain a niche activity. There is nothing wrong with being a niche activity if so chosen. But we are kidding ourselves if we think we can grow the audience base in the future with musical offerings, while technically proficent, are not done in a more populist vein.( Just my 2 cents worth mind you. )

I can't speak for others, but "tympani carrying " (as your example cited )was one of those " innovative " experiments that were once tried by Drum Corps that had much support at the time, but in hindsight as you correctly pointed out is now generally seen to have been a failed experiment. That just demonstates that all change that has favor at the time may not stand the test of time in later years. Including perhaps some of the " changes " we see now, that later years may prove to have been simply boring but intoduced as " innovative ", and therefore automatically " good " or " better ". Each of us sees things thru their own filter. For you, "75 Madison is unappealing. But "75 Madison being votied as a show for the ages speaks to it's timelessness, and securing this vote in some cases from those who had not seen the Corps, or were too young, or not yet born, is a testiment to it's popular appeal across the generations. My post here is not to knock what today's Corps are doing, as there is much to like. It was in response to the original thread originator to express some empathy for his viewpoint and to express my disagreement in some areas where I disagreed with his assessment. I don't want you to think that I'm in the camp that sees very little entertainment value in today's Corps. Those fans are certainly vocal, ( at least the ones that have not left ). But I'm also not in the camp that thinks that todays Corps offerings are not immune from criticism's either. That is, afterall, what a discussion board should do.....provoke thought, and challenge preconceived notions. ( Including my own. )

By definition a " classic " is something that is timeless. There are few " classics " in any genre of art, music, theatre, opera, sports. Those that become a " classic " are watched by both young and old alike.. " Casablanca " is a movie classic. Liked by both young and old alike. At various stages. It has stood the test of time. The works by Chopin, Ravel, James Joyce, Norman Rockwell, Michaelangelo, are " classics ". Sometimes works that are popular or avarde garde at the time look dated later. Some drum corps shows from the 70's , 80's do in fact look outdated. But quite a few don't fit that bill. ' '75 Madison, for one example, is a ' classic ". It's stood the test of time with both old and new fans. Young and old fans. So be careful of sweeping generalizations. the Cadets show of 2005 may someday become a ' classic '. Then again ,your children might laugh at this show with the little girl and her door as too weird, disjointed and silly. Only time will tell. Decades from now.

Sorry, but you lost me. I've never considered " The Cadets " in the category of " somebody else " type of Corps. Not with the Cadets resume. No siree. Now if it was the Phantom Regiment, Boston, Blue Coats, Crown, etc, then you'd have my pleasant surprise....no.....THRILLED surprise and joy......( haha ).

It is pure conjecture if the Drum Corps fan base will enlarge or not. It has been flat line for many years, with little increase in the overall fan base diespite the fluidity of the fan base coming and exiting. Whether the DCI product will be apppealing to the ESPN audience and will attract new fans, is speculative at best. There is no empirical evidence to draw upon that the ESPN audience will like this " progressive movement " style Drum Corps that you speak of and will come out in droves as new fans. It's faith alone that drives your position. Which is OK

The shows are getting more complex and more demanding over the years. Whether they are more entertaining is certainly open to speculation as many of the past drum Corps fans have already spoken with their feet and have either gravitated to the DCA, or to the Alumni Corps shows, or to the drum corps like shows on Broadway like "Blast " which played the classic drum Corps showpeices and musical compositions we are all familiar with. Others have simply watched the transformation.....and just disappeared. They have been somewhat replaced by a new wave of fans that are generally happy with the product that they see and hear. Where I disagree with you is on the point of discipline, spirit. I think these kids in Drum Corps today are every bit as disciplined ( if not more so ) than earlier generations of Drum Corps participants. A lot of what I see from these kids, they are certainly more disciplined and mature than I was ( and many of my friends ) when we marched. But otherwise, you raise some interesting points. Drum Corps shows are light years more visually complex. Not sure though that the judges today are penalizing clearly bad posture, equipment positioning when playing and when at rest, uniformity of knee, feet, arms, etc and a host of other bad technique, even among the elite Corps. My guess, with the complexity of the shows both musically and visually, the technigue that earlier corps almost routinely possessed has been eroded. But then again, that's just my opinion. Today's newer fans seem to marvel at the " whole " while the nuances of technigue seems to be overlooked ( or not noticed). Not sure if this is a byproduct of Band or not. But it is noticeable to me and other long time drum corps fans. But the DCI judges seem to be rewarding and prioritizing other components than in earlier years. I don't think there can be any dispute on this. Thanks for your input by the way, and try and keep the faith if possible.

There is a lesson to be learned on this thread and it's this : Oftentimes, Corps shows that we find most entertaining, even " truly memorable ", don't win the DCI Championships when the the DCI judges think another Corps or Corps " better ". Just because the judges think a Corps is " better " ( which was true in the case of '93 Cadets at the '93 DCI Championships ) does not mean that we as fans can't find another Corps or Corps more entertaining....even one of the most entertaining of all time for some fans. It sort of puts into perspective scoring and placements.

The 93 Star of Indiana show has been discussed on this board alot. The fact is, that was a good Corps that competitively went back and forth with the Cadets that year the few times they met. The Star of Indiana won the DCI Quarterfinals at the DCI Championships that year. But the Cadets squeeked out wins in the Semi's and of course in the Finals. " Medea " was contoversial, but in the end, even the judges agreed the Cadets were a hair better. But that should not deter fans from calling this 93 Star Corps for them, one of their most entertaining. There is nothing wrong with that either. There is no right or wrong answer when it comes to what one finds very "entertaining ".

One of the shows was Jackson for the Finals. The Star' of Indiana's show was not booed at either the Quarters or the Finals that I attended. I do recall my internal booing for the selection of this site for DCI Finals though. I'll never foget the smell that came into that stadium from the nearby poultry farm. ( I think it was a poultry farm anyway ).

I have heard this knock on the drum Corps fans from 1993 before. But I attended 3 shows that year that the Star of Indiana participated in, and not once did I recall the Star of Indiana being booed. I asked those who atended with me if they recalled the booing of Star, and they told me they don't recall any booing of the Star of Indiana either. Maybe it's a midwest thing, this booing of Star, as the shows I attended were from Pennsylvania, eastward. Whenever Star finished at the 3 shows I attended there was applause mostly for their obvious profiency, and some silence from others as this show was different to some. But " booing " during their show, or when they finished ? I never heard it. Neither did my family, nor friends who went with me to these shows. As a matter of fact, I can't recall any corps being booed at an East Coast Drum Corps show. Ever. Even those Corps that were maybe not as entertaining, or were from another region. I have heard some boos at the judges scoring announcements at retreat over the years( who here hasn't ? ), but booing a Corps because of their show ? That's a foreign concept to this drum Corps fan who's attended more shows than he can count.

When you say the Crossmen are " not as clean ", that is a little different than your follow up that compared to the other Corps the Crossmen are " not as entertaining, period ". What is " entertaining " to one person may not be to another. It seems to me that you are well grounded if you say that the " Crossmen FOR YOU were not entertaining ", but you sound arrogant when you try to tell others in no uncertain terms what is "entertaining ". Everyone brings to their " entertainment " quotient their own experiences, likes, dislikes, knowledge, pejudices, etc. The judges certainly agree with you that the Crossmen are lacking in specific judging qualities ie visual design , ensemble, percussion, execution captions, etc as established under the current DCI scoring system. But even a seasoned DCI judge would grant any individual the right to say that in their personal opinion they were "entertained " more by a lower placing Corps. I grant others the right to agree or disagree with the judges scoring and placement. But I reserve the right to any fan to hold fast to which Corps were " entertaining " , and which were not. That's just basic courtesy to allow one the right to say what was more " entertaining " for them personally. I can understand why the Crossmen are placing where they are. But for me personally, they put on a more entertaining show than a couple of others that are scoring higher than them. My personal " entertainment " placements are not tied to the scoring placements this year. They rarely are. I'm sure I'm not alone in this dichotomy.

I need 15 gin and tonics to wade thru the insufferable Boston Magazine. That magazine is written for Yuppies coming to Boston wanting to know where the best digs are to be seen and heard. My fervent hope is that this writer is on Nantucket with his 12th gin and tonic during the Quarters and Semi's in Foxboro, and is working on the nap, come the Finals. The writers in this magazine typically live at home with Mom and Dad, and drink and nap a lot anyway.

You mirror precisely my thoughts on this. I have had only a cursory interest in the scores and placements for many years now. And I'm as competitive as the next guy having coached High School Basketball. I go to the shows to be entertained, meet friends I've maybe not seen for awhile, and support the activity. For your information, as a subscriber to DCI Pass, collectively, there is no other single Corps I find myself enjoying the music more than that of........ Phantom Regiment.

Lack of mainstream appeal is most certainly ''a flaw ", in my opinion. Obscure composers were obscure for a very good reason. They appealed to a distinct, small minority only. Nothing wrong with that. They just were unable to reach support from a broader audience, that's all. 'Having support from a broad audience that can appreciate a show from different levels, is what makes the show a " classic ". The inability to connect to an audience of divergent interests and only appeal to a small group is not a commendable endeavor, in my opinion. But the show that can soar, and connect at either an emotional or cerebral level, to a variety of tastes, abilities to discern, and experiences in the audience, etc is most certainly more preferable. But that's just my opinion here.