coloradocorp

Back when - generally speaking - most corps marched their shows in Prelims into concert formation - didn't play the concert - then went into their exit - thus keeping changes to the minimum to meet the shorter time on the field. Your comment that here was 'less emotion' etc - shows what era of DC you may have been involved with. There was emotion, I can assure you. It was tough on the judges back then at Nationals that indeed had dozens of corps - prelims could end just a few hours before finals was set to begin. All these 'opinions' about first read might have some validity. Back when - it was a case of attacks/releases/pivots/alignment and how the show appeared from up top - first and last read was mostly irrelevant. The new era corps music and drill books tend to be more complex and perhaps judges and fans take a few views to hash out the 'full effect' . Everyone is entitled to their opinion. All these claims and inferences that the judges intentionally score corps based on where they are from, how many shows they sponsor or get marching orders for scoring from DCA Mgmt is so sad. Judging has always been a bone of contention and that pertains to any form of competition involving a human assessing a performance. Judges have personal preferences and opinions and in the subjective scoring system that plays a role in the outcomes for sure. Certainly there was 'some' hanky panky ' in judging back when - we all have our stories of eraser marks or added tics on sheets after the show finished - etc. - no system is perfect - but the vast majority of judges were and still are on the up and up. Come Saturday night there will be corps who just miss finals and there will be disappointment. There may be a shocker or two - we'll see. At Finals - judges will issue their 'LAST' read of the season on the corps and like it or not - that will be the result. As for the KS - they will make finals certainly and draw more crowd acclamations, but wherever they finish - the corps above them will have deserved their scores as much as whatever KS is granted. Regardless you can expect the judges will be blasted by a left coast contingent and a host of others with their pointed views.

I just finished watching. DCE has come a long way IMHO if KS is any indication. A wonderful show. I then re-perused the RECAP sheet - half their margin out of first and 2 points or so out of 4th was percussion and given the video had decent - not great - sound - I do not think their percussion book was better than what they got and as for execution - there were a number of muddy parts though overall they surprised me a lot. As for drill - some issues esp intervals which hurt the effect. I'm sure they will clean it up a LOT before this weekend - there had to be jitters as well as lots of excitement flowing in their first performance. They have two shows to show DCA what they can really do. Brass line was indeed superb..some really great licks. Go KS.

Seems the judges take a beating every year since the drum corp activity began - they are rarely, if ever right in some views. The conspiracy theories abound - absurd. As a former HS/College basketball official - I've heard many 'kill da bum' calls from the stands - part of the turf if you judge anything. These guys will do their best to be fair, accurate in accordance with the rules in place - though we all know subjective calls can be perhaps too much of personal preference and not a universal call. NO - the judges won't consult the DCA Board to ask how they want the results to come out as some infer. All the corps will try to hit a season high with their performances. As to whether this will be one of the best overall DCA fields in decades - we all have our preferences. For me - the days when Sky, Brigs, Cru were still competing at their peaks along with more solid versions of Cabs and Renegades for example - those IMHO were the best fields ever for DCA.

10. Kilties 9.Bush 8. Renegades 7. Kidsgrove Scouts 6. Alliance 5. Caballeros 4. Ct. Hurricanes 3. Minnesota Brass 2. Empire 1. Bucs Top 3 will be separated by under .7

A hot discussion indeed. Seems everyone contends that KS did a heck of a show in BGPT - wonderful to hear the overall quality in DCE has risen so very well. As to the inferences that the show was underscored because they were 'newbies' - just an absurd contention. My take on the recap sheet was that KS was down in just about every caption to the tune of 10 points out of 1st. If this was a 'planned' event and outcome - every judge on the field would have had to be in on it - get real ! There has always been and there always will be issues over results, but what may or may not have happened 35 years ago or whenever is irrelevant to the today. Many (most ?) of us who have been around for quite a few years, have seen or been on the short end of some 'challenged' judging outcomes in our opinions. Who knows - we know there have been some dirty stuff at times - it happens in any endeavor. A longtime friend and former judge for over 25 years was at DCI Finals - he said that if you went purely by audience fav - Madison Scouts might well have had a great shot at a much higher placement than they got. Never been a DC judge, but officiated basketball at the HS and College level for over 30 years - I know what booing is about - you can't please everyone in the stands. Right or wrong - can anyone see a judging panel this weekend jumping KS 6-10+ points as some contend they should have gotten ? Not gonna happen. KS will put on another wonderful performance and receive well deserved accolades this weekend. All the corps will be giving it all they got - it will be a true competition. For those who are contending that DCA 'fixes' the results - you need a rest indeed.

Well stated and I agree totally that your analogy of Ice Skating Judging panels vis a vis DCI judging is point on.

Just saw the Recap sheet - certainly does not match the very positive comments from many very knowledgeable folks on this thread who were at the show - by a mile for sure and it wasn't just in percussion - KS were behind everyone by chunks across the board. Most of the judging panel were very DCA experienced so it makes ya wonder why such a major spread in assessment between fans and judges. Several of these guys will be judging in Roch next weekend so it makes one wonder - will KS pick up - hard to phantom that any panel composition would jump them 10-12 points or whatever in one week to be more competitive with the top 5 or so corps. Who knows !

Stu Don't disagree with your observation that this is one possible driver for lower attendance, but on the flip side - why call these competitions if the outcome is - for the most part - already decided ? Perhaps indeed the behind the scenes DCI objective is to move the activity - or at least the infamous G7 or whatever - to a purely 'show' model similar to Blast and do away with competition eventually ? Competition and the ability for say a corp sitting in 5th for a period of time to take it all is something some ( or many ) might prefer. Maybe the drop in attendance at a number of shows is that fans generally prefer 'competition' and will go to see a show fewer times given the outcomes are pretty well decided towards the end of a season - with a few exceptions of course. DCI hates to hear the term - slotting - but its so obvious. Once a show gets its blessing from the judges and given an ordinal value and as execution improves/hits its ability level - game over. Some prefer no surprises - but for me - upsets or surprises add to the enjoyment. The dinosaur 'tic' system had its issues in consistency of judging etc, . but at least it had that air of 'on any given night a corp could pull off a higher placing or a win even if they had been mired in 3rd or whatever during a season.

Are you serious Boo ? You think fewer people would go to the WS if the teams met before during the season ? Obviously you don't follow sports ! People go for the competition - period. As to the interest in knowing attendance - there is a negative trend of fewer corps and lower attendance that should be a concern to anyone in DCI. Were yo\u aware that some sponsor contracts with DCI are predicated on attendance totals - thus the reason DCI is not wide open with attendance figures. DCI corps have reached a pinnacle of excellence in terms of execution - just astounding in many cases - yet as corps get better, attendance drops ? Something is amiss and it goes beyond G7 etc.

Amen - point on. They played to the audience on the surface, but it was indeed built on rock solid music and drill books which were performed so very well. The 'circus' show was just one which when you look back - was a precursor to an evolution of the shows - so many corps added on over the years whether it be Phantom with the stunning Spartacus package or the phenomenal Phantom of the Opera staged by SCV. BD show this season - while I certainly prefer their great jazz book years - was so broadway with a performance execution that was just superb.

Absolutely - we all like what we like - if we all liked exactly the same - life would be ultra bland would it not. Hey - there were some back when who objected to the stuff Bridgemen would pull on the field - they broke the mold. I loved it. Many forget that the evolution of the activity to what we now see just didn't happen - poof. It is the culmination of many decades of progress and those who came before. Hey - I flew in the Air Force and when I talk with current pilots - they think I'm nuts for saying I prefer the old fly by the seat of your pants versus relying a lot on today's onboard advanced instrumentation. Performance of today's aircraft is certainly a step up - but flying is/was still a thrill then and now - yet the pilots of today still have respect for the skills we older pilots had back then and vice versa. No different with corps. With that - going on vacation to the Jersey Shore tomorrow.

Kam Hey we're all young' LOL..or so I wish at times. Sorry if you took the posts to be "get off my lawn" which was not the intent. Maybe I came across wrong - if so - my apologies. I have seen far too many showing no respect for the greatness that preceded them. I respect corps from the then and the now though I will say that I prefer the entertainment package from the then. The activity is challenged today both at DCA and DCI for a variety of reasons. Hopefully it will continue to sustain itself.

Agreed Fran - the years 1968-1974 were mostly a blur for me - too busy flying jets for the Air Force during which I had no news on DCA stuff though I did catch a few Jr shows when home on leave.

Jeff - I don't think anyone is saying every corp or many corps from back then were 'great', but remember - there were hundreds of corps and not 4 dozen or so like today. In my 50+ years in the activity, I never recall corps getting 50's in the finals of any major competitions -prelims perhaps. Maybe you were referring to Pennsylvania States or whatever ? For the instrumentation of the time and the skill sets of the corps - there were a number of super corps which entertained the crowds. Todays corps have the luxury of greatly improved instrumentation plus the guys/girls in the lines are what - 90% music major or true musicians at least. No one is saying all the corps from back when are better or even the equal of today's corps BUT the issue at hand i- and you appear to support that position which is fine as an opinion - that the corps were not as good as we thought from back then. Hey a BD, Phantom etc. etc. would be scoring some great marks if they were playing in some time warp back to 1970 for instance - who said they wouldn't. These guys are so phenomenal. One last comment to inject. The kids in the corps today are vastly superior overall in terms of musical expertise and schooling, but they also have some great instrumentation to go along with it. My golf game today is better than it was 35 years ago in every phase and I'm 68 years old - why - the equipment (clubs and balls ) have improved dramatically and I drive further , I've gone to a number of schools to hone my skills however meager they might be etc. plus in retirement I play more AND I get lots of time at the driving range. My scores are better, but they should be given all the factors. No different with drum corps. All in all - as I said earlier - if one thinks a Manning or whomever is a far better QB than say a Montana from 20+ years ago - fine - we all have an opinion, but saying Montana was 'crap' and he only looked better with the passage of time he was retired - that really is off base IMHO.

Come on Fran - the King of Announcers should be good at this.

???? - Jeff - plz clarify ... just looking for a guesstimate - a beer rests on the outcome.

Amen... The percussion lines today get some great licks in and the stick work is superb - but I fully agree the rudiments based lines from back when were not chop meat - to the contrary. There were many great lines - my personal preferences ran into the books written by Bobby Thompson, Jack Pratt and Colin Campbell. Jack's penchant for swiss army rudiments was memorable - honed of course during his many years with the West Point Army Band.

Come on LegalEagle - I didn't say anything about his having to listen to music from the 60's and 70s. My point is purely that the classic style corps were not 'crappy' and if he is a musician who has heard some of the greats from that era - he knows they weren't half bad. we all have opinions, absolutely. This guy says he marched with Reading - fine - they had some wonderful corps from decades ago. I personally do not embrace the current style, but I don't call it crap because it isn't and in terms of performance execution - the brass lines are superb and superior to what we had for sure - they should be given the types of guys they have in the lines. . My point was that we all indeed have our preferences - kinda like the argument that since I personally think Joe Montana is the greatest QB ever - others who might say a more current QB like Manning is the best - fine - but an opinion that Montana was 'crappy'. - well give it a rest. Reality - the old and the new need to continue to perpetuate the activity - appreciate where it was and where it has gone - that's my point. BTW - are you in the legal biz - I am a retired criminal and corporate attorney and yes I'm crankier with age for sure. Peace.

Sorry Kamaraq, but that was a very silly comment and shows you have zero respect and absolutely no knowledge of the activity of the past. Please take some time to listen to some decent recordings. To say that corps of the 60s'and 70's sounded 'crappy' - stunning. You have a right to your opinion - though I would guess you are in the overall major minority. Your youth is showing..don't worry .. you will grow up and become enlightened at some point

Possibly so. My point - last season I saw Cavies for example - 2 consecutive shows within a few days. First show was fine about 50% of the way into the season. Next performance was one of those nights where things go bad - brass line was noticeably off and they had 2 guys go down YET their score went up by 1.35 - why - when you looked at the ordinals from the shows in between as well as the scores - the off night was in line with the overall score progressions across the country. Just odd is all. As to your quote - if its too loud you are too old - it should be more like - if its too loud you must be listening to a recording from the 60's or 70s when things were LOUD and didn't need Amps.

Anyone have attendance figures for qtrs/semis/finals this year - I hd heard one guesstimate of 27000

All the positive expletives have already been used in describing your review of this show. What more can one say - point on super ! One thing I wonder about is the scoring. DCI gets slammed for 'slotting' by the judges. Top corps can have off nights yet their scores go up and from the same caption judges. DCI denies there is slotting - yet - how else can one corp's scores get into a 'groove' - how can the scores remain consistent across different sets of judges on the same night in 5 different places across the country - yet the scores/overall rankings remain point on same. Hmmmmmmmm. Has DCA reached into that bag as well ? Example - I noted the review on the Cabs by two different reviews from Scranton - they aren't former Cabs either. Both said Cabs were improved and pushing it YET - their score and position remained the same as previous weeks basically. Are the Cabs slotted regardless of how they perform ? NOt just them - but I've noted on the flip side - Reading has a few issues at various shows yet their scores don't reflect it though no one disputes they are the top corp once again. The ancient 'tic' system had its flaws for certain, but at least it allowed a much better chance of the old axiom - 'on any given night......' upsets rarely if ever can happen under the current judging criteria and process - for good or for bad - or so it appears.

Interesting commentary review. Indeed Allentown is one of the best DC venues in the country.

Hey Tasty - no kidding - but you are still missing the point - DC arrangers today charge 3-4X for 'original' works versus arranging public domain/licensed material. Entertainment is relative to the individual. For me and just about all of my drum corp buddies from the 60's - many of the shows today just don't do it !

BIGW - I was aware about the music licensing fees for 'some' music, but paying say a $2500 license fee to score a show around a recent Broadway hit show is 2-4x less than paying one of the corp arrangers out there to come up with an original score with mostly forgettable music. The vast majority of music - whether it be classical,jazz or whatever is available gratis. We've seen the magnificent scores corps such as SC Vanguard has done with classical works - against the framework of today's brass lines - stunning and entertaining. As for the 'foot tapping' at a DCI show - are you show the foot wasn't trying to kill a bug ? Years ago - the best and the not as good corps played enjoyable music primarily. Not so today. Far too much of the shows are akin to sleep therapy - though admittedly the execution of the brass lines is stunning. Percussion lines are musical versus rudiments based though sound aside - the execution on a 'tic' basis I find to be certainly no better in comparing the best lines of today versus xx years ago.