making non-finalist corps more competitive

[prodigal bari]

Hmm...this topic is back again...so I will revive my take.

Will not work. I will not pay 1200-2000+ dollars to be TOLD where I will march.

This is not pro sports; where you have a draft and players getting PAID to play. If anything, this is a consumer activity, where members PAY to march. This will not work; and it could drive people away from even participating.

The average age of a Top-6 member corps is 20+ yoage. A college student will NOT wait to go thru a D2/3 corps (unless they want to march at that level, which would be great...but should be their choice.) if their intention is to march in a top-tier corps...and let's face it; HS bands are corps feeders now, not the lower-level corps. If you enforce any type of participation step-ladder into to so-called elite these students will give you the finger and spend their time and money elsewhere. And it could destabilize the entire activity.

It is up to the corps to make their organizations so attractive that it creates desire and loyalty in present members to stay; and attractiveness to draw new blood. And DCI would be better off in marketing the D2/3 corps better (it is TERRIBLE at present) and to actually get them more within the inner circle of the activity rather than the fringes. Any attempt to force membership by PAYING students into corps they do not want to be in is a recipe for disaster in the activity.

Edited July 28, 2007 by prodigal bari

[PhanFan]

And DCI would be better off in marketing the D2/3 corps better (it is TERRIBLE at present)

I have to agree with this approach - more support from DCI as well as other types of support.

My daughter marched a D3 and D2 before PR and although it was a great learning experience, there were a LOT of problems, not enough support and I always felt like they were on the "fringe" of Drum Corps. It would have been better if there was a closer kind of brotherhood/sisterhood between the D2s, D3s, lower ranking D1s and the top D1 corps.

It would be nice if (some of) the lower corps had a little better sponsorship also. If I get to a point in life where I have any extra money, I would definitely try to help out the lower corps as well as the D1s.

It's really hard to keep your motivation up in the less supported corps when the kids are working just as hard as everyone else but their corps are trying to work miracles on a shoe-string budget. Boy could I tell you some unbelievable horror stories, but I won't.

If the lower corps had a little more financial and fan support, the experience would be more attractive to the D1 kids that don't make the cut and could enter a D2 or D3. A lot of the staff in the lower corps are amazing and many kids could benefit from getting corps experience there on their way up to a top corps if they are capable.

Unfortunately, I know quite a few kids that would never march again because of some bad experiences in D3s and D2s, not because of the hard work or the music, but because of the nitty gritty day-to-day things that make a corps work and thrive (or fail to do so) and enable then to improve all the way to the end.

If you have D3 or D2 corps where 20 or so kids bail during the summer, you know there are serious problems. Most of the problems are solvable though - there just hasn't been enough support to trickle down to all the corps, which is very unfortunate.

JMO of course - many Corps have not had the problems that I have seen and they are great training grounds for younger less experienced kids. I applaud their efforts wholeheartedly.

[Elmo Blatch]

We will just put trap doors, lions, and gladiators out on the field. Whenever a "non-finalist corps" member makes a mistake, DCI "releases the hounds." It would be formatted like "Running Man," but Dan Potter can do the commentary in favor of Richard Dawson.

Elmo Blatch

Edited July 28, 2007 by Elmo Blatch

[silvertrombone]

Absolutely nothing, since the Oakland A's have more wins from 2001-2006 than anyone but the Yankees.

Great, so my entire argument falls apart because of...one team??? What about the KC Royals? What about the Minnesota Twins? What about the Tampa Bay Devil Rays? What about the Florida Marlins? Even the Cincinatti Reds and Pittsburgh Pirates? There are many perennial losers in MLB who simply cannot compete with the big market clubs because they don't have the budget to do so. $$$=stars=championships in pro sports.

Care to try again? Fine. Lets talk the NHL. So much for being a Canadian sport. Where did they all move? Big market, high-exposure, big-money American markets. Why? Already said it. Money. Can't blame it. Business is about profit and sports are about winning. And you can do it better in Dallas than Minneapolis, Denver than <Winnipeg?>, Miami than <?>.

Stadiums. I've got a couple more arguments going down the path that I started a moment ago. Keep me going. Big, new stadiums gain big bucks. Watch out--Yankee Stadium is being replaced. Now what do you think that's going to do for the Yankees ability to bring in the highest-dollar roster, hmmm??

Whereas I feel your intentions are good, what you are suggesting will never happen....corps is a volunteer youth activity, not the NBA...Kids are going to audition and march where they want to.

I guarantee you that alot of "name" teams would not have wanted to play Boise State in football at the end of last year......

With next to no effort, I put 15 people in the corps by myself, most who stayed 2 years....some longer....the corps went from 10th to 3rd to 1st. I realize that we were a finalist going in (but 10th, and 17th the year before).

I do think that perhaps a rule should be made that if you march in a division I corps and wish to march in another division I corps the next year, that you should be ineligible and have to wait a year, unless your old corps "releases" you to do so

Ironically, this year I think the field at DCI is very deep and competitive. Some of the corps who do not make finals would have gotten in other years......the competition for 12th is absolutely fierce this year, and even for 17th. I would not be surprised if there is less than 2-3 points seperating 11th and 17th. This is a good thing.

GB

Bob, thanks for some very good points. I kind of pulled out what I wanted to reply to and edited out the rest.

Kids will audition wherever they are allowed to audition. This issue was a non-issue in 1972 when corps were largely still local units with 'neighborhood' kids, as is so often discussed here. Rockford fielded most of the membership of Regiment. Today they don't. Zero local kids last year, don't know the number this year, and PR is largely unknown other than in the local, aging (I might add) alumni base. I hear Cavies are basically the same situation. SCV too, I think I was told. The 5 'former champion' corps that I keep referring to attract a national audience of auditionees--I was one of them. I have no problem with that. But the issue has morphed into an issue sometime since 1972 and today it is an issue of monopolistic proportions. Making it a rule that in order to audition for these 5 corps you must march elsewhere one year (D1, 2, or 3)--heck, go march Bluecoats!--means that if you want to march BD or Cavies or Cadets, you know what you have to do in order to pursue that dream. I did (out of necessity, not by rule). They will (if it is a rule).

Point two: I can think of one 'Big Name' school the OP is associated with who agrees in hindsight! Go BSU! Shake up the top!

Point three: I'd be interested to know which corps and when that happened--I simply cannot remember. Not being a jerk.

Point four: While I'm not sure I agree with this, it is nice to see someone else putting forward thought-out suggestions for discussion. Thanks!

Last point: I said last year after finals this would happen, and boy don't I look like the sage of wisdom! I'll go further and say watch out for next year because there is absolutely NO reason to think that anybody is going to let up!

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who will audition in Concord, Santa Clara, Rosemont, Rockford, and Allentown who will be cut and will not even think about attempting to march elsewhere. That's sad, and it's simply a fact that those potential members miss out just as much as we fans who could have enjoyed them in every...single...other...corps...out...there.

that would only benefit the top corps...

non-competitive corps would only have rookies who probably wont stay next season

and they would only be training rookie... and becoming less competitive

the top corps will benefit from this cause they would have no rookies coming in.

it would only make the problem worse

I'm apparently dense. Will a new voice chime in and inform me as to how it will only benefit top corps? I thought the idea was to shove members the direction of other corps.

Now: They may never march ANYWHERE.

Proposed: If they CHOOSE not to march b/c they don't like the rule, that is their CHOICE and they would have to LIVE with it. No biggee--plenty of voices around here with no marching experience, and many have VERY good things to say. But a rule is a rule is a rule, and if DCI tells Mr. "I know everything, I'm 18 and I have Mommy and Daddy's checkbook to prove it" to go march Denver, Tempe, Carolina, Boston, or wherever else they choose for a year, then again...CHOICE: Do I go home and pout it out on the couch for the next four years, or do I go march a "lower corps" for a year, pay my dues, and go audition wherever I want the rest of the time after that.

The point nobody is really bringing up, and it's starting to annoy me, is that you get to CHOOSE to AUDITION anywhere you want right now. You are not CHOOSING where to MARCH. Get the difference?

600 people at Phantom Regiment auditions are CHOOSING to buy great kitchen equipment for 1 out of every 4 in attendance.

He now puts on his instructor hat. Look around you at your CHOSEN place of audition this fall. Statistically speaking, you, the guy to your left, and the gal to your right are going home and not coming back. See you next year.

That's fact right now.

My proposal (OP's differs slightly) holds that if you've never marched DC anywhere before <blunt opinion forthcoming--sorry>, you don't yet DESERVE to audition for the elite corps. Got a checkbook loaded with M&D's hard-earned bucks? Great! Go contribute your bucks to another worthy, but not quite illustrious organization, and place your blood sweat and tears on the altar of drum corps, and we'll gladly take your money to let you CHOOSE to AUDITION next year!

Like I said, blunt--sorry. But not really.

And remember--I'm making a proposal that will affect MY corps, too. Taking one for the activity, so to speak.

Will not work. I will not pay 1200-2000+ dollars to be TOLD where I will march.

This is not pro sports; where you have a draft and players getting PAID to play. If anything, this is a consumer activity, where members PAY to march. This will not work; and it could drive people away from even participating.

And it could destabilize the entire activity.

It is up to the corps to make their organizations so attractive that it creates desire and loyalty in present members to stay; and attractiveness to draw new blood. And DCI would be better off in marketing the D2/3 corps better (it is TERRIBLE at present) and to actually get them more within the inner circle of the activity rather than the fringes. Any attempt to force membership by PAYING students into corps they do not want to be in is a recipe for disaster in the activity.

Point #1: Then you, my friend, would be making the CHOICE not to AUDITION anywhere. Your comrades on the field cannot hear you at home watching on simulcasts from your couch.

Point #2: K. So lets say of those 600 at Rockford auditions I keep referring to, exactly how many are driven away, hmmm???

Is it 5 prima dona's? K. Bye. C-ya!

Is it 100?

Is it 450? Fine. Still enough to fill the corps.

I've heard this argument, but I just don't think it holds water. Maybe I'm being stubborn.

However, I've offered a perfectly reasonable model as follows (previous thread) that nobody has countered and that works better than the present where 450 show up to AUDITION and are sent home, having contributed to the culinary comforts of their comrades in corps.

Now: 600 audition. 150 make it. 450 don't. How many of these 450 don't march ANYWHERE? Seriously--I'm curious to know. Betcha it would fill an entire D1 corps at the new 150 member level.

Proposed: Out of those 600, do you think there are 150 vets of PR and other D1/2/3 corps? Cool--then there are enough to field another year of Phantom Regiment. (fill in the name/numbers for any of the 5 corps in question--I just keep using mine as example)

Now, of those 600 who have no DC experience, the simple rule is--go march elsewhere for a year. Two questions:

1.) How many who audition at these 5 corps have zero DC experience?

2.) How many people of that number would, as one of the posters said, "Give DCI the finger and run off to band camp or elsewhere?"

Gotta tell you guys--after I saw DCI, I would have marched four years at Pioneer before doing one year of band camp. And I KNOW there are a lot of you out there who agree, because I know the bug, and you've got the same bug. Admit it.

Door #1: Four years at Pioneer.

Door #2: Four years of band-O camp.

(Dear Pioneer faithful--please don't take this personally. I apologize if I offend. Insert Impulse or Revolution instead.)

[silvertrombone]

I have to agree with this approach - more support from DCI as well as other types of support.

JMO of course - many Corps have not had the problems that I have seen and they are great training grounds for younger less experienced kids. I applaud their efforts wholeheartedly.

I agree wholeheartedly, and I think that this proposal would actually assist the lower and smaller corps--god, I hate using such terminology--in becoming member magnets like the top D1's. I'm either really dense or someone just hasn't explained how this would kill lower corps' moral and spirit.

I guess it's just that I keep hearing this <blunt opinion forthcoming--sorry!> whining, prima dona attitude of, "I have the money, I have the talent, and I want to march WHERE I WANT TO MARCH!!!

I guess it just drowns out the rationale behing the argument that, "This just won't work! It will kill lower corps! It could (what did they say?) turn the entire activity on its ear." Doesn't float with me, guys, and I'll prove it.

Look at the excitement being generated by the 10-17 corps this year. Look at the excitement near the top with Bluecoats. Look at the excitement being generated (along with the discussion!) by Academy. Listen to all the comments being made by everyone--myself included--comparing the achievement levels of today's D2/3 corps on the field with many years ago--NO comparison, guys!

Excitement! Excitement! Excitement! Like never before--literally!

Nobody <BIG generalization forthcoming> remembers a year as competitive and exciting as this year!

Now, imagine [bOX] thinking --------------------->over hear for just a minute, what would this year look like if the MINIMUM achievement level were the 10-17 corps. I mean, say, all D2 and D3 corps are 135 in size, still competing against themselves, but they are competing at the level of this year's MADISON SCOUTS!

Yikes!

Shift some of the folks auditioning for the 5 corps in question to the rest of the activity, give it two years, and VOILA!

2007 would look like 1977. (no offense to the old-timer's)

Now, how do you win in an activity like that? Everybody's brass is like BD's. Everybody's percussion is like PR's.

Not THAT is exciting, because the entertainment value goes through the STRATOSPHERE!

Defunct corps start springing forth from the ground like spring daisies.

Dogs and cats living together peacefully.

The whole thing.

BTW, is that your kid in your avatar?

[PhanFan]

BTW, is that your kid in your avatar?

Yeah - but don't tell her, she'll probably make me take it off, lol.

[radiosteele]

I think if DCI created scholarship pools for EVERY corps from the money made off of apparrel, memorabilia and multimedia items, and allowed these corps to use 10-20 scholarships per corps, depending on size - then they can do things like scout high school and college bands. Then they can offer scholarship tryout invitations to outstanding students.

That would help many corps retain regional talent instead of kids trying out for the corps of their dreams, a 1000 miles from home, not making it, and sitting out the summer.

If they were invited to tryout for a corps scholarship and after not getting that dream spot with The Cadets, they could end up with a free-ride with a corps like Southwind, the Spartans, Memphis Sound, etc.

Then every corps would be able to recruit a nucleus of high-level talent.

I'd put one restriction on it. The scholarships are for rookies only. Vets should pay their way, regardless of how good they are.

The purpose of this should be to take advantage of talent that would otherwise never make it to the drum corps stage.

Edited July 28, 2007 by radiosteele

[verber]

I don't know if requiring people to march in a lower tier corps before marching a top corps is really a smart idea. I auditioned for a top 5 corps, but was cut. I decided to go march with a non-finalist Div. I corps in order to gain some experience. Four years later I aged out of said non-finalist corps.

Some kids will go to the non-finalist corps and love it like I did, but I have also seen another side to this. I marched with many people who treated their time in my corps as nothing more than a prerequisite for their desire to march elsewhere. Specifically, I remember marching with a contra player one year who seemed to begin every sentence with "Next year when I am marching this-specific-top-five-corps." This guy once refused to come to rehearsal because "he already marched better than most of the corps." Another year I marched we had two guys quit midseason because "the show was not challenging enough."

I think making prospective members march a non-finalist corps before people march finalist corps may lead to more of this type of behavior. If someone is dead set on marching in a top 5 corps and their ego would be bruised to the point of making others miserable if they took a spot in the Mandarins-Crossmen-Blue Stars-Troopers-Pioneer-Pacific Crest-Other fill in the blank non finalist corps, then maybe said person just doesn't belong in the activity. If someone is willing to contribute in a positive way to their non-finalist drum corps, even if it is just for a year, by all means get them in a uniform. The main thing is that an element of choice must be maintained.

I think DCI needs to also do a better job of promoting Div II/III and corps that place out of finals. In the past couple years the ESPN broadcast has barely even mentioned such parts of the activity. Recent moves on DCI's part such as not releasing non-finalist shows on CD seem to also marginalize the importance of the 13-22nd place corps.

Edited July 28, 2007 by verber

[Blueemrld8]

I think if DCI created scholarship pools for EVERY corps from the money made off of apparrel, memorabilia and multimedia items, and allowed these corps to use 10-20 scholarships per corps, depending on size - then they can do things like scout high school and college bands. Then they can offer scholarship tryout invitations to outstanding students.

That would help many corps retain regional talent instead of kids trying out for the corps of their dreams, a 1000 miles from home, not making it, and sitting out the summer.

If they were invited to tryout for a corps scholarship and after not getting that dream spot with The Cadets, they could end up with a free-ride with a corps like Southwind, the Spartans, Memphis Sound, etc.

Then every corps would be able to recruit a nucleus of high-level talent.

I'd put one restriction on it. The scholarships are for rookies only. Vets should pay their way, regardless of how good they are.

The purpose of this should be to take advantage of talent that would otherwise never make it to the drum corps stage.

I really enjoy this idea. I see it as having the desired effect of boosting the non-finalist DivII/III pool. The only issue is this: How deep are DCI's pockets and will they open them?

[silvertrombone]

Yeah - but don't tell her, she'll probably make me take it off, lol.

Geez, she's been in the pit since, like, 2003 hasn't she? Maybe another blonde.

I don't know if requiring people to march in a lower tier corps before marching a top corps is really a smart idea. I auditioned for a top 5 corps, but was cut. I decided to go march with a non-finalist Div. I corps in order to gain some experience. Four years later I aged out of said non-finalist corps.

Some kids will go to the non-finalist corps and love it like I did, but I have also seen another side to this. I marched with many people who treated their time in my corps as nothing more than a prerequisite for their desire to march elsewhere. Specifically, I remember marching with a contra player one year who seemed to begin every sentence with "Next year when I am marching this-specific-top-five-corps." This guy once refused to come to rehearsal because "he already marched better than most of the corps." Another year I marched we had two guys quit midseason because "the show was not challenging enough."

I think making prospective members march a non-finalist corps before people march finalist corps may lead to more of this type of behavior. If someone is dead set on marching in a top 5 corps and their ego would be bruised to the point of making others miserable if they took a spot in the Mandarins-Crossmen-Blue Stars-Troopers-Pioneer-Pacific Crest-Other fill in the blank non finalist corps, then maybe said person just doesn't belong in the activity. If someone is willing to contribute in a positive way to their non-finalist drum corps, even if it is just for a year, by all means get them in a uniform. The main thing is that an element of choice must be maintained.

I think DCI needs to also do a better job of promoting Div II/III and corps that place out of finals. In the past couple years the ESPN broadcast has barely even mentioned such parts of the activity. Recent moves on DCI's part such as not releasing non-finalist shows on CD seem to also marginalize the importance of the 13-22nd place corps.

You are to be commended and you are my new hero! While it would certainly not be my intent to keep people from marching top 5, I know the result would be that many people would march 'elsewhere' forever--and given the already insanely high level of achievement 'elsewhere,' that wouldn't be half bad!

I realize it would be a problem to have 'ring-seekers' marching the 10-17 corps ("Next year when I'm at XYZ..."), but that can be dealt with. If I'm a staff member and have some prima dona talking like that, I just get in his face when nobody else can hear me speak to him and simply state, "Yeah, I know XYZ's corps director on a first-name basis--have his cell phone number in my cell phone. If you don't straighten up and fly right, or if you ever take such an attitude like that again, I will personally make it my mission in life to keep you from even being invited to audition there or at any other top corps."

But that's just cuz' I'm just as capable at being a snot as the best snotty-nosed 18-year old wannabe out there. And being that I'm on the other side of 18, already been 18, and don't have much use for 18-year old games, I know them and can play them better.

Oh, and chances are pretty decent that I've got that cell phone number in my cell phone, so it wouldn't just be a hollow threat. And depending on their response, I might add--if they work their butt off til season's end--to make a call to XYZ corps and give a recommendation. Thing about incentive is it works. Thing about attitude is it doesn't go away. Betcha money that--IF this person were accepted at audition in the top 5--they were just as much of a punk in top 5 as in 10-17. Had 28 of 'em in Phantom when I marched.

And I pull the same thing on my Sunday School kids, too. Scares the poop right out of a misbehaving kid when you tell them you'll call their parents right in the middle of service! See, there isn't too much difference between 12th grade and 1st grade--just the difficulty of grammar and arithmetic!

I really enjoy this idea. I see it as having the desired effect of boosting the non-finalist DivII/III pool. The only issue is this: How deep are DCI's pockets and will they open them?

Doubtful, but I second or third the motion...whichever we are on now. Cute avatar.