John Cage and drum corps

[Michael Boo]

No, it really does suck. It's a bunch of arbitrary notes and it's not pleasing to listen to it all. Think about it whatever you want, I think it's sucks; that's my opinion and it's as valid as yours.

Yes, your opinion is valid, so why not state it as an opinion and not as a fact?

"Not pleasing to listen to" FOR YOU is expressing an opinion. Others might find it pleasing. "It's a bunch of arbitrary notes" is stated as a fact, while others more versed in Cage's concepts might be of the opinion that the notes are not arbitrary at all. "It really does suck" states your opinion of the music as if the music sucking is a fact. "I think it sucks" is finally getting to expressing your thoughts as an opinion, rather than as a fact.

And thoughts can change over time, so there's a possibility that over the years, you might look at Cage's music (and seriously, please see if you can find a recording of "Third Construction") and say, "I still don't like it, but there's more to it than I earlier thought."

Unless, of course, your opinions are immune to growth and learning.

[Hrothgar15]

Yes, your opinion is valid, so why not state it as an opinion and not as a fact?

"Not pleasing to listen to" FOR YOU is expressing an opinion. Others might find it pleasing. "It's a bunch of arbitrary notes" is stated as a fact, while others more versed in Cage's concepts might be of the opinion that the notes are not arbitrary at all. "It really does suck" states your opinion of the music as if the music sucking is a fact. "I think it sucks" is finally getting to expressing your thoughts as an opinion, rather than as a fact.

And thoughts can change over time, so there's a possibility that over the years, you might look at Cage's music (and seriously, please see if you can find a recording of "Third Construction") and say, "I still don't like it, but there's more to it than I earlier thought."

Unless, of course, your opinions are immune to growth and learning.

I was always taught that when someone says something that can only be construed as an opinion, it's automatically assumed to be one, regardless of whether person says that it is one. I guess some people don't do this. I'm now learning that for some people, if you don't claim that something is your opinion, they will accuse you of trying to pass it off as fact.

[danielray]

I think so.

If you still think so, you have only listened to music, but have yet to explore the concept of music.

A lot of this whole idea of challenging the very definition or concept of art comes from post-war reactionism, movements like Dada and artist like Marcel Duchamp.

An iconic work of his was called 'i]Object Waiting to be Destroyed[/i]. It was a photograph of an eye taped to an old metronome, sitting on a table next to a large hammer.

The point was to 'experience' the work as long as possible, to the final moment where you had not choice but to 'end' the piece in order to maintain your sanity.

The idea is that art, in whatever form it may take, is designed to cause someone to think, to feel or to do... that too much of art, particularly music, up until that time was passive... 'passenger art'.

This was sort of a touchstone for an entire movement in art. Cage is simply an evolution of the ideas of Duchamp and other post-war reactionists.

[Michael Boo]

I was always taught that when someone says something that can only be construed as an opinion, it's automatically assumed to be one, regardless of whether person says that it is one. I guess some people don't do this. I'm now learning that for some people, if you don't claim that something is your opinion, they will accuse you of trying to pass it off as fact.

But that's my point...You might think what you say is "something that can only be construed as an opinion," when in reality, others MIGHT perceive it as coming across as stating a fact. If I can't convince you to at least consider that scenario, then I'm just wasting bandwidth. And nice try with the "they will accuse you" bit. That makes others into proscecutors.

I doubt at this time there is really anything more I can say that could possibly be of any benefit. Or, as Cage once stated, "I have nothing to say and I am saying it." :P

[Officer_Jenny]

No, it really does suck. It's a bunch of arbitrary notes and it's not pleasing to listen to it all. Think about it whatever you want, I think it's sucks; that's my opinion and it's as valid as yours.

The pieces that were linked do not use arbitrary notes. No pitch indeterminacy.

Edited August 27, 2007 by Officer_Jenny

[Einstein On The Beach]

The pieces that were linked do not use arbitrary notes. No pitch indeterminacy.

Yeah, seriously. What are you talking about Hrothgar? I posted probably the tamest John Cage pieces I could find, and follow even some of the most basic of musical "rules" (rhythm and harmony to be exact). So you saying it's arbitrary notes without even knowing how they were constructed anyway is pretty far off base. Not all music is supposed to pretty, easy to digest, and only created by things that toot or pluck. Well, these are both piano pieces, so they're pluckers anyway. Your statement = refuted.

[Michael Boo]

While we’re assaulting composers, let’s don’t forget the following.

I believe many will agree that the music of Beethoven sounds like the upsetting of bags of nails.

And Chopin wrote music that was nothing more than ranting hyperbole and excruciating cacophony.

And, hey, don’t drum corps fans love Tchaikovsky? Why? His music is nothing but pandemonium, delirium tremens, raving, and above all, noise worse confounded.

Wagner is another composer we’ve heard on the field often. His music is nothing but a diabolical din …, stuffed with brass and sawdust, inflated, in an insanely destructive self-aggrandizement, by Mephistopheles' mephitic and most venomous hellish miasma, into Beelzebub's Court Composer and General Director of Hell's Music.

Oh, and by the way, those aren’t my opinions. John Ruskin wrote the review of Beethoven. London’s Musical World added the one about Chopin and the Boston Evening Transcript wrote the review of Tchaikovsky. The one about Wagner was extracted from an 1871 rant by German historian J.L. Klein.

[MarimbasaurusRex]

To say John Cage's music "sucks" is to ignore every other composer who has been positively influenced by his work, including John Lennon, Steve Reich, and hundreds of others. Without Cage, would we have the music of Glass, Adams, Stockhausen, et al? Cage opened doors. One may choose to walk through them or not.

In the case of drum corps, it might make more sense to move in a logical progression toward Cage's concepts before diving into the abyss. First, maybe a little Henry Cowell, Schoenberg, and others who paved the way.

[Officer_Jenny]

how about some george crumb on the field too?

black angels anyone?

time to legalize string instruments

[kdaddy]

I'm not a huge Cage fan, but I found a good quote and a great photo to make this for my webpage...