An open ended question...

[GuyW]

If they "outlaw" the Getzens and the chrome bumpers, they'll do fine....the more Ultratones they use, the better they'll do....

If you really want to experience the woes of tuning a line, try an alumni corps where everyone brings their own toys. Nothing like trying to get the same C out of Olds Ultratones, DEG 2-valvers, DEG 3-Valvers, King 2-valvers, Kanstuls, one or two Getzens and a chrome bumper.

Edited June 29, 2008 by GuyW

[Bruce Linderman]

Yeah, Bucky could make anything sound good. Back in his prime there were quite a few people using Parduba mouthpieces, but it was also a different era than today. High and loud was the name of the game. Period.

Megatone is a "heavy" version of the Bach standard series. It is supposed to give a fuller and darker tone. I haven't tried a Megatone, so I don't have any first-hand experience to draw upon. IYM pieces are similar to the Megatone in that they have a lot of weight. They are also stainless steel, as opposed to the brass Megatones.

Last year I read somewhere that Cavies were using IYM mouthpieces exclusively. I was just wondering if they changed for '08. Chris Nalls' point was that the more uniformity in equipment, the fewer intonation issues there are to deal with. I agree that ANY line in a class with the Cavies should sound magnificent. My question was merely to find out if they were still using the IYM's or had moved to something else.

Much of the ensemble sound is still in the hands of the arranger. You can have the best musicians going, but if the arranging isn't up to par the sound won't be there. (I still wonder what concert keys the B-flat lines are playing in as contrasted with G bugles.)

G,

The arranger, absolutely. Especially in drum corps where many are amateurs or semi-pro. '07 Caballeros are a good example of infereior arrangements. (Bad for their level) I did play a few notes on a Mega once and liked it.

Scott Koter (Cavies director) lives about 15 minutes from me, and I finally met him 2 weeks ago, I wanted to ask him a thousand questions (Concert keys for tunes number one) but was during rehearsal and I knew better.

I compose (badly) and arrange as an amatuer (dropped out of Juliard years ago and have a real job). I can arrange for G in my sleep (literally) and when I discovered B flats were coming the obvious keys were floating in my head. However, i never took the time to ask, or figure them out myself.

If you think about it: Skyliners New York New York - Key of C (G Concert) for G bugles. In fact, I used to play that on my trumpet in High School. One would have to play the trumpet in A (Concert G). "A" might be a little awkward for amatuers, so lets go one step down to "G" (concert F). You're still in the G bugle range, with only one sharp (and 3 valves).

Ergo, I'm going to take a stab and say if C, G, F, and even B flat are common Keys for G Bugles, the keys for a trumpet to play with those are A, E, D and G. Assuming those are "too many sharps and flats, I'm guessing that one step down to G, D, C and F are still high enough to be near the Bugle range, while limiting sharps and flats.

I'm going to ask some experts, but my "groggy" Sunday afternoon uneducated guess (in addition to A, E) are the keys of G, D, C and F for the B flat horns, corresponding to concert keys of F, C, B flat and E flat.

Interestingly, when the Cavies were playing a warm-up C major Chord, the instructor called it B flat. Threw me off for a second, but then I realized he was talking in "Concert". Maybe Mellophones are in F?

I probably should have checked these keys out with a keyboard, cause the keyboard in my head needs tuned. Let me know if I made any mistakes.

Nice chattin'

Bruce

Edited June 30, 2008 by Bruce Linderman

[G-horns]

G,

The arranger, absolutely. Especially in drum corps where many are amateurs or semi-pro. '07 Caballeros are a good example of infereior arrangements. (Bad for their level) I did play a few notes on a Mega once and liked it.

Scott Koter (Cavies director) lives about 15 minutes from me, and I finally met him 2 weeks ago, I wanted to ask him a thousand questions (Concert keys for tunes number one) but was during rehearsal and I knew better.

I compose (badly) and arrange as an amatuer (dropped out of Juliard years ago and have a real job). I can arrange for G in my sleep (literally) and when I discovered B flats were coming the obvious keys were floating in my head. However, i never took the time to ask, or figure them out myself.

If you think about it: Skyliners New York New York - Key of C (G Concert) for G bugles. In fact, I used to play that on my trumpet in High School. One would have to play the trumpet in A (Concert B). "A" might be a little awkward for amatuers, so lets go one step down to "G" (for our B flat horns, a concert A). You're still in the G bugle range, with only one sharp (and 3 valves).

Ergo, I'm going to take a stab and say if C, G, F, and even B flat are common Keys for G Bugles, the keys for a trumpet to play with those are A, E, D and G. Assuming those are "too many sharps and flats, I'm guessing that one step down to G, D, C and F are still high enough to be near the Bugle range, while limiting sharps and flats.

I'm going to ask some experts, but my "groggy" Sunday afternoon uneducated guess are the keys of G, D, C and F for the B flat horns, corresponding to concert keys of A, E, D and G.

Interestingly, when the Cavies were playing a warm-up C major Chord, the instructor called it B flat. Threw me off for a second, but then I realized he was talking in "Concert". Wow.

I probably should have checked thee keys out with a key board, cause the keyboard in my head needs tuned. Let me know if I made any mistakes.

Nice chattin'

Bruce

This thread has morphed, but in a good way.

I think your transpositions from B-flat to concert are reversed, but I know exactly what you are saying. I, too, think that the B-flat lines are of necessity using "sharp" keys, but not necessarily to get them in the "bugle range" but moreso for the brightness of the keys. I play in a church group and need to constantly transpose for my trumpet. Everyone loves it when the tune is in concert G or D, because the trumpet sounds brighter. On the other hand, a tune in concert E-flat won't have the same punch. I haven't heard a live corps of any kind for the better part of two years, so I'm a bit out of touch when it comes to critiqueing horn lines.

Years ago, Chuck Naffier pointed me to a website that Ray Baumgardt had where he discussed in detail the task of key selection when writing an arrangement. I'll poke around and see if I can find the URL. Having looked at a number of Dreitzer charts over the years, I learned a lot about picking the right key to get the desired sound. It was even more difficult when the bugles didn't have full chromatic flexibility.

I'm not surprised that the B-flat lines are talking in concert key. The trumpets are reading in B-flat, the mid horns in F, and - even though the bari's and tubas are B-flat instruments - they are reading in bass clef C. The only possible way to avoid confusion is to use concert key references.

Intelligent discussion is great, thanks for the opportunity.

[Design Hound]

This thread has morphed, but in a good way.

...

Intelligent discussion is great, thanks for the opportunity.

Exactly why I stepped down on my original purpose of discussion, since what you guys started talking about is way more intelligent than my "vengeance fact checking"

[Bruce Linderman]

This thread has morphed, but in a good way.

I think your transpositions from B-flat to concert are reversed, but I know exactly what you are saying. I, too, think that the B-flat lines are of necessity using "sharp" keys, but not necessarily to get them in the "bugle range" but moreso for the brightness of the keys. I play in a church group and need to constantly transpose for my trumpet. Everyone loves it when the tune is in concert G or D, because the trumpet sounds brighter. On the other hand, a tune in concert E-flat won't have the same punch. I haven't heard a live corps of any kind for the better part of two years, so I'm a bit out of touch when it comes to critiqueing horn lines.

Years ago, Chuck Naffier pointed me to a website that Ray Baumgardt had where he discussed in detail the task of key selection when writing an arrangement. I'll poke around and see if I can find the URL. Having looked at a number of Dreitzer charts over the years, I learned a lot about picking the right key to get the desired sound. It was even more difficult when the bugles didn't have full chromatic flexibility.

I'm not surprised that the B-flat lines are talking in concert key. The trumpets are reading in B-flat, the mid horns in F, and - even though the bari's and tubas are B-flat instruments - they are reading in bass clef C. The only possible way to avoid confusion is to use concert key references.

Intelligent discussion is great, thanks for the opportunity.

Thanks G,

I tend to reverse transpositions when I do them quickly in my head.

I considered the "brightness" factor in my previous, but didn't bring it up. With the old G slide/valve bugles, the less sharps and flats seemed to be better; hence, C, G, F etc.

I presume, then, Mellophones are now in F? I always wondered, because they make a nice alto voice in an orchestra, and makes sense that today's "B flat" field corps do the same. Yes. It explains "speaking" in concert keys.

I'd better get back to my Keyboard and Protoge program...write something and get famous! lol

Edited June 30, 2008 by Bruce Linderman

[Bruce Linderman]

Alright, so after a few days discussion, I've extracted the following about my original "predicament":

-The purpose of a G Bugle isn't to play bright and raspy

-The sound a mouthpiece and horn generates depends on the player, both their mouth shape etc and their skill level, as much if not more than the type of mouthpiece and horn they use (as long as neither are made of plastic )

-With a skilled player, the mouthpiece that works for them is what they should use to create their best sound (especially in a corps where matched equipment is not practiced)

Please let me know if you think those three points are valid or not.

Unfortunately I won't be able to make this counter argument to the guy without engaging the topic myself though, since I'm making sure I never forget my mouthpiece case again and can use my usual piece

However, continue this discussion by all means, definitely learning from all of your points of view.

Yeah, I would agree generally. But some skilled players from vintage horn lines (a la 1963 Archer-Epler) could sound incredibly smooth and soft with excellent intonation at times.

One has to think back to the fifties and sixties when, as a rule, marching music sucked, witht the exception of Drum and bugle corps that infused excitement and "loud" into Marching music.

The best explanation I ever heard was "Although G and B flat play in the same arena, G is playing Hockey and B flat is doing figure skating" Great analogy.

Giving up G is like giving up my persimmon woods. But, like metal, I'm starting a romance with B flat.