Some Stats for Review!

[victorcoly]

Taking a look at DCI Finals average scores of the top 12 from the inception of DCI until now, based on 10 year increments, stats are as follows:

1972:

Avg score of top 12 = 81.96

1982:

Avg score of top 12 = 89.11

1992:

Avg score of top 12 = 91.68

2002:

Avg score of top 12 = 91.64

2008:

Avg score of top 12 = 92.48

This info may be useless, but it brings out some interesting facts and questions:

Since the mid 1990's, the score of the 12th place corps in finals has been between 84 and 86.

The spreads between the 4th & 5th place corps, and the remaining finalists has been between 2 and 4 points. Is there that much of a distinction between these corps?

The "tic" system for the ost part was used up through the 1983 season, yet the avg scores have not changed that much. Furthermore (and yes, I will use the "D" word again!), and "demand" subcaption was distinctally in use through 1985, and the avg scores are almost the same. The only thing that really has changed is the higher scores of the top 3. So what's wrong with bringing back a demand caption / subcaption in some revised form? Might make for some interesting competitiveness among the corps going forward!!

I really found it interesting that the avg scores had not changed that much between 1992 and this year. In fact it somewhat surprised me!!!

What is interesting, though, and another poster stated it in another thread -- Why is it that a 5th place corps or lower can no longer be in contention for, or win a caption at finals?? Over the past few years there have been corps in 4th place or lower that should have either won, or placed in the top 2 or 3 in a caption but it didn't happen! Hmmmmmmm....?????

[Jared_mello]

yeah, youre right, the fact that these things have been exactly the same over the last 15 years (even though the activity itself is so drastically different) is pretty ridiculous. i didn't agree with the big spread below 5th place this year, and i also don't agree with the 12 place corps ALWAYS being around an 85. as the top 12 as a whole gets better, all of the scores should be tighter, not just the top 3 or so.

i'm inclined to agree with what you said about the 5th place or lower corps not being 'able' to contend for a caption victory. people accept it as being necessary, as being a reasonable side effect of dci's order of performance on finals night, but it ISN'T RIGHT that scores are so heavily affected (or completely controlled, for that matter) by performance time.

[Matt_S]

What is interesting, though, and another poster stated it in another thread -- Why is it that a 5th place corps or lower can no longer be in contention for, or win a caption at finals?? Over the past few years there have been corps in 4th place or lower that should have either won, or placed in the top 2 or 3 in a caption but it didn't happen! Hmmmmmmm....?????

Probably just beacuse it hasn't happened in a while, not that it cant'. Bluecoats were sixth at finals, seventh most of the week, but were third in drums. It's tough to say they were really in contention, because frankly no one was in contention with Phantom in that caption, but 19.35 is still a strong number for a corps that went on before intermission at finals. Having a corps lead the division in a caption yet still score pretty low overall should be pretty rare anyway. After all, the overall score includes those high numbers already - approaching 20, if they're contending for the caption title. You're asking why we don't see outliers, when outliers by definition are quite rare.

And honestly, the inverse of what you're talking should prove that it can happen, as well. Blue Devils were first all week, and very nearly first again on Finals night. Yet despite taking first in just about every other caption, they were fourth in Music Ensemble, and fifth in percussion. That's the same kind of variety you're looking for, just swung a different way.

[victorcoly]

And honestly, the inverse of what you're talking should prove that it can happen, as well. Blue Devils were first all week, and very nearly first again on Finals night. Yet despite taking first in just about every other caption, they were fourth in Music Ensemble, and fifth in percussion. That's the same kind of variety you're looking for, just swung a different way.

Good point on the inverse!!

Another "inverse" also belongs to BD.

In 1981, they finished 2nd, and their percussion line finished 9th! If their drum line was even a few rolls and unisons better that year, they win DCI!!

In 1980, BD won, and their drum line finished either 8th or 9th.

Those 2 years pretty muched doomed BD's drum staff at the time as in 1982 Tom Float was hired on, and the percussion problems kind of went by the wayside ever since Float and Scott Johnson have been at the helm.

[Jared_mello]

Probably just beacuse it hasn't happened in a while, not that it cant'. Bluecoats were sixth at finals, seventh most of the week, but were third in drums. It's tough to say they were really in contention, because frankly no one was in contention with Phantom in that caption, but 19.35 is still a strong number for a corps that went on before intermission at finals. Having a corps lead the division in a caption yet still score pretty low overall should be pretty rare anyway. After all, the overall score includes those high numbers already - approaching 20, if they're contending for the caption title. You're asking why we don't see outliers, when outliers by definition are quite rare.

ok ok, i'll provide an example, even though i tried to avoid specifically doing so in my earlier post. the bluecoats 2007 hornline. 1st place almost all season, and a 19.8 in brass on quarterfinals night (when we performed in the 4th.....maybe 5th but i think 4th place slot) by andy poor, the chief dci brass judge. i think we came in 3rd in brass at one show during the season, but we were essentially in 2nd place at worst all year....1st at most of the regionals. after prelims, we wound up performing in the 7th place lot for the last two nights. both nights we came in 4th in horns. the hornline was filled with vets, most of whom were around when the corps 'turned it up' during the previous years finals weeks when we jumped other corps with days left in the season, so there would be no reason to make immature mistakes at the big shows. hypotheticals aside, the last two shows were the best two, as far as i know/was told.

the only variable was the watering down of some of the brass (most notably the mellophone) parts late in the year, but those things certainly didn't happen on friday or saturday. i guess the other one would be the other corps getting DRASTICALLY better those last two nights, but honestly, what's the likeliness of them getting that much cleaner that late?

my point is not to complain about those results, not by any means, but i think it's a pretty reasonable example in regards to what's being discussed. if you feel that our performance level dropped those last two shows, let me know, because that's not the impression i've had in the past year. i have albert lo's judge tape from finals last year, and he spent pretty much the whole tape gushing about various things, giggling when appropriate, and mentioning how the contra line was the best in dci.

you used the drumline as an example from this past year (6th place overall, 3rd in drums), but last year we were 7th overall and got 2nd in drums. maybe that's a better example as well.

[Jared_mello]

my favorite example of these exceptions is bd '91. 5th overall, 1st in horns (absolutely deserved it....i think they tied with star though?), and 8th or 9th in drums.

[sday88]

Jared, I completely agree with you, but here's my take on it. If you would have gotten a 19.8 last year at Finals after going on in the 7th place position, what room would that leave for the next six corps? What IF all of the last six ended up playing better than you? How could they fit six corps' scores in the range of 0.2? It's not right by any means, but that's the way it is. It would be a very risky decision by the judges to do that. They should have to nads to do it, but they don't.

[Jared_mello]

i mean, of course i've heard that argument before, thats what most people on dcp keep saying. if you really think about it though, all the argument really insinuates is that it CAN'T be done, that judges CAN'T put themselves in that situation.....my personal involvement in the situation in 2007 aside, i don't think that's right.

regardless, the semis and finals judges both saw us at LEAST 5 times during the summer, maybe more like 10. it seemed like we saw albert lo around once a week. considering he had us in 1st or 2nd at regionals, wouldn't it make sense that he knew that he could throw a high score out there, and assume that most of the other corps would be below it unless they drastically exceed his expectations? there was no way that scv or the cavaliers were going to outperform us on their best night that year, and crown could probably fit into that group too. personally i haven't figured out what bd's brassline was doing that year that we weren't, but that's just an opinion and doesn't really factor in to this discussion of the 'certainties' of that night. i dont think any of the other three even came close to beating us during that season, so that's at least a 19.6 or a 19.7 that could be "safely" put down without fear of repercussions.

as a sidenote, phantom's drill was a lot harder than ours, so i took what they achieved brass-wise and kept that in mind. they were a bit ragged sounding overall and that long and loud mello F in firebird suite was really inconsistent and out of tune, but were a very good brassline and i could see why we'd be competitive in that caption. even though some people bring up the 'stickouts' and 'blend problems' in cadets '07, i think i'd probably give them the jim ott trophy. extremely high level of achievement with highly impressive demand both visually and musically.

ok, it probably isn't right that i'm involved in this considering i was part of one of the drum corps in question, so i'm going to let you guys debate and analyze and all that good stuff.

Edited August 11, 2008 by Jared_mello

[rkfdPRphan]

...being 'best' all season is one thing, but what you bring to the Finals is another.

Just playing your best 'repeat' version of your season's show just doesnt raise you in total points from Thursday to Friday to Saturday.

Corps need to either have something in reserve for Finals or develop something during Finals week.

Take this weekend's Phantom show....if you had seen it 2 weeks ago you could easily say it was, at best, a 4th or 5th place show. BUT, so many things changed!

The top corps have something left to show at the end of the season.

At Finals, playing your show better gets you very few extra points - adding/changing to your show makes a big change in your final standings.

Its happened over and over in the Finals. Some corps pulls out a final trick and gains enough points to win.

I believe the display of the shields, laying out of helmets after Sparticus' death and the lancing of the drum major (oops, the evil emperor) did it.

How do you drum corps members remember all those changes every night??????

[Zeke]

my favorite example of these exceptions is bd '91. 5th overall, 1st in horns (absolutely deserved it....i think they tied with star though?), and 8th or 9th in drums.

OMG that '91 Hornline and Arrangement is the best of my top 3 favorite bd lines. '93 comes a close 2nd. I really wish they would go back to those types of arrangments IMHO nothing has been anywhere good since those years.