Ahamay Oton Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 From Soundmachine, 9/5/07: I just spoke with Don Warren and asked him for the "facts" as best he could recall. He told me much the same as Bob Briske, the contest direct that night, had stated when I researched the "facts" several years ago. Many corps directors were tired of the overage members in corps back then. I personally knew of quite a few overage members in corps I competed against (they were good friends of mine, but their corps weren't competitive and I felt it was their conscience, not mine). In fact, I marched with an overage member in the Cavaliers in 1973 (for a few shows until we found out and asked him to leave). Several directors and Don Pesceone had decided that winter to make sure to clean up the overage issue. Dave Kampschorer from Blue Stars, Jim Jones from Troopers, Bill Howard from Madison, and others were determined to work with DCI to try to put an end to it. Tom Remo joined the Cavaliers in 1975 as a tympani. He had marched with Blessed Sacrament the year or two before. He was personally aware of many overage members in the Muchachos. He identified the rototom player as being one he was dead certain could be proven overage. Don Warren and several other directors and the DCI leadership were made aware of the situation. They decided to disqualify Muchachos due to the gross neglect of supervision (22 Muchachos were found to have had false birth certificates, all notarized by the same person in N.J. - instead of being notarized in their individual hometowns and is normally the case). Don Pesceone verified this. It wasn't because Muchachos had ONE overage member. There were probably a half dozen corps that year in that situation. It was the complete disregard for the rules by Muchachos that caused their disqualification. Don Warren was not the one who pulled the overage member out of the line. He told me that he was not allowed to do so since he was not technically the Cavaliers corps director. He was the president. The corps director that year was Danny Heeres. Per DCI rules at the time, the corps director who was accusing had to be present with Don Pesceone when the identification was made. Thus, Don Pesceone pulled the overage member from the line with Danny Heeres standing next to him. The member admitted he was overage. DCI had to wait until after the corps had competed in prelims in order for the disqualification to be valid. If they had pulled him before hand, they could not have disqualified the whole corps. And again, because they knew of so many overage members they wanted to punish the organization, not just the one overage member. They did NOT want to ruin the lives of the many kids in the corps who had nothing to do with this, but it was apparent to DCI that the Muchachos management was intentionally disregarding the rules. The Cavaliers did not have a grudge against the Muchachos or any other east coast corps. It had nothing to do with the Muchachos not buying into DCI financial or touring committment. Any one of several corps would have turned in any one of several other corps if they had found the same egregious evidence of foul play. Cavaliers just happened to be the corps with the proof, and the Muchachos just happened to be the corps most abusing the rules. No conspiracy theory at work. Only good folks wanting everyone to play by the rules - and not to completely flaunt them with disrespect. IMHO, it is virtually impossible to state that the Muchachos management was unaware of the fact that they had at least several overage members. And it surely was not the first year they did it. I stood next to the Muchachos at retreat during my ageout year at Finals in 1974. I can tell you that they had overage members. Geez . . . not even remotely discreet about it! Get serious. The Cavaliers were also not trying to get Muchachos disqualified for any specific competitive reasons. We were only a middle of the road Finalist back then. We weren't competitive with Muchachos in the least. Maybe we would have been had they not had so many overage members, but we didn't disqualify them so we could move up one place. Who cares. Anyway, the score sheets were definitely NEVER totaled. The judges did NOT get togehter and compare notes to come up with a total score. I personally asked Don Angelica about this before he died and he said he knew nothing of that. He was one of the top judges back then and the longtime Judges Coordinator for DCI. After Don Pesceone met with the DCI directors with the evidence he asked them what he should do with the untabulated sheets. He was told to destroy them. He did so, without ever adding up the score. End of story - if you choose to believe the people who were actually involved in a position of knowledge and authority. Maybe it is time for the management team of the Muchachos to discuss publicly if they knew of their many overage members. They are as much to blame as any of the overage kids in the corps. I find it hard to believe they did not know. Paul Milano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drumss Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 From Soundmachine, 9/5/07:I just spoke with Don Warren and asked him for the "facts" as best he could recall. He told me much the same as Bob Briske, the contest direct that night, had stated when I researched the "facts" several years ago. Many corps directors were tired of the overage members in corps back then. I personally knew of quite a few overage members in corps I competed against (they were good friends of mine, but their corps weren't competitive and I felt it was their conscience, not mine). In fact, I marched with an overage member in the Cavaliers in 1973 (for a few shows until we found out and asked him to leave). Several directors and Don Pesceone had decided that winter to make sure to clean up the overage issue. Dave Kampschorer from Blue Stars, Jim Jones from Troopers, Bill Howard from Madison, and others were determined to work with DCI to try to put an end to it. Tom Remo joined the Cavaliers in 1975 as a tympani. He had marched with Blessed Sacrament the year or two before. He was personally aware of many overage members in the Muchachos. He identified the rototom player as being one he was dead certain could be proven overage. Don Warren and several other directors and the DCI leadership were made aware of the situation. They decided to disqualify Muchachos due to the gross neglect of supervision (22 Muchachos were found to have had false birth certificates, all notarized by the same person in N.J. - instead of being notarized in their individual hometowns and is normally the case). Don Pesceone verified this. It wasn't because Muchachos had ONE overage member. There were probably a half dozen corps that year in that situation. It was the complete disregard for the rules by Muchachos that caused their disqualification. Don Warren was not the one who pulled the overage member out of the line. He told me that he was not allowed to do so since he was not technically the Cavaliers corps director. He was the president. The corps director that year was Danny Heeres. Per DCI rules at the time, the corps director who was accusing had to be present with Don Pesceone when the identification was made. Thus, Don Pesceone pulled the overage member from the line with Danny Heeres standing next to him. The member admitted he was overage. DCI had to wait until after the corps had competed in prelims in order for the disqualification to be valid. If they had pulled him before hand, they could not have disqualified the whole corps. And again, because they knew of so many overage members they wanted to punish the organization, not just the one overage member. They did NOT want to ruin the lives of the many kids in the corps who had nothing to do with this, but it was apparent to DCI that the Muchachos management was intentionally disregarding the rules. The Cavaliers did not have a grudge against the Muchachos or any other east coast corps. It had nothing to do with the Muchachos not buying into DCI financial or touring committment. Any one of several corps would have turned in any one of several other corps if they had found the same egregious evidence of foul play. Cavaliers just happened to be the corps with the proof, and the Muchachos just happened to be the corps most abusing the rules. No conspiracy theory at work. Only good folks wanting everyone to play by the rules - and not to completely flaunt them with disrespect. IMHO, it is virtually impossible to state that the Muchachos management was unaware of the fact that they had at least several overage members. And it surely was not the first year they did it. I stood next to the Muchachos at retreat during my ageout year at Finals in 1974. I can tell you that they had overage members. Geez . . . not even remotely discreet about it! Get serious. The Cavaliers were also not trying to get Muchachos disqualified for any specific competitive reasons. We were only a middle of the road Finalist back then. We weren't competitive with Muchachos in the least. Maybe we would have been had they not had so many overage members, but we didn't disqualify them so we could move up one place. Who cares. Anyway, the score sheets were definitely NEVER totaled. The judges did NOT get togehter and compare notes to come up with a total score. I personally asked Don Angelica about this before he died and he said he knew nothing of that. He was one of the top judges back then and the longtime Judges Coordinator for DCI. After Don Pesceone met with the DCI directors with the evidence he asked them what he should do with the untabulated sheets. He was told to destroy them. He did so, without ever adding up the score. End of story - if you choose to believe the people who were actually involved in a position of knowledge and authority. Maybe it is time for the management team of the Muchachos to discuss publicly if they knew of their many overage members. They are as much to blame as any of the overage kids in the corps. I find it hard to believe they did not know. Paul Milano I'm sure the corps management must have known about the situation...my point was simply that not all the membership knew.... as LancerLegend noted, we were the ones who happened to have been cited for the issue. The enduring question is why were we the only ones cited? Other earlier threads have argued that a widespread crackdown or additional disqualifications may have destroyed the essence of DCI at that time... maybe not..maybe so.... As you stated - end of story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobrien Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) I have always wondered what the kids in Madison were thinking about after CYO Nationals in 1975? That they just beat Muchachos by nearly two points? (Well, ok - given that M's beat a couple corps who were close to Scouts in the week prior, they may have been a little concerned. But, as has been noted over the years. Muchachos were playing with a rigged deck, so any speculation re: their possible success in Philly has to discounted because of that fact.) Edited July 20, 2009 by mobrien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LancerLegend Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 That they just beat Muchachos by nearly two points? (Well, ok - given that M's beat a couple corps who were close to Scouts in the week prior, they may have been a little concerned. But, as has been noted over the years. Muchachos were playing with a rigged deck, so any speculation re: their possible success in Philly has to discounted because of that fact.) I am not so sure about that - because hindsight is 20/20. My point was that one of the premises of DCI - is that on any given night - any corps can pull off a job and win. Hawthorne - with or without overage members - was getting kicked around prior to CYO Nationals. But at CYO - with the same kids that had been marching all season - they pulled a showed out of their buttocks and drove the audience - and many judges - wild. As a FMM - I know when we were smoking another corps - and then one night they decide to go 15 rounds with us - it woke us up. It's easy to say that Madison wasn't concerned now - but I'd like to hear from someone that remembers the tension that the prevailed that last week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoutnout Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 From Soundmachine, 9/5/07:I just spoke with Don Warren and asked him for the "facts" as best he could recall. He told me much the same as Bob Briske, the contest direct that night, had stated when I researched the "facts" several years ago. Many corps directors were tired of the overage members in corps back then. I personally knew of quite a few overage members in corps I competed against (they were good friends of mine, but their corps weren't competitive and I felt it was their conscience, not mine). In fact, I marched with an overage member in the Cavaliers in 1973 (for a few shows until we found out and asked him to leave). Several directors and Don Pesceone had decided that winter to make sure to clean up the overage issue. Dave Kampschorer from Blue Stars, Jim Jones from Troopers, Bill Howard from Madison, and others were determined to work with DCI to try to put an end to it. Tom Remo joined the Cavaliers in 1975 as a tympani. He had marched with Blessed Sacrament the year or two before. He was personally aware of many overage members in the Muchachos. He identified the rototom player as being one he was dead certain could be proven overage. Don Warren and several other directors and the DCI leadership were made aware of the situation. They decided to disqualify Muchachos due to the gross neglect of supervision (22 Muchachos were found to have had false birth certificates, all notarized by the same person in N.J. - instead of being notarized in their individual hometowns and is normally the case). Don Pesceone verified this. It wasn't because Muchachos had ONE overage member. There were probably a half dozen corps that year in that situation. It was the complete disregard for the rules by Muchachos that caused their disqualification. Don Warren was not the one who pulled the overage member out of the line. He told me that he was not allowed to do so since he was not technically the Cavaliers corps director. He was the president. The corps director that year was Danny Heeres. Per DCI rules at the time, the corps director who was accusing had to be present with Don Pesceone when the identification was made. Thus, Don Pesceone pulled the overage member from the line with Danny Heeres standing next to him. The member admitted he was overage. DCI had to wait until after the corps had competed in prelims in order for the disqualification to be valid. If they had pulled him before hand, they could not have disqualified the whole corps. And again, because they knew of so many overage members they wanted to punish the organization, not just the one overage member. They did NOT want to ruin the lives of the many kids in the corps who had nothing to do with this, but it was apparent to DCI that the Muchachos management was intentionally disregarding the rules. The Cavaliers did not have a grudge against the Muchachos or any other east coast corps. It had nothing to do with the Muchachos not buying into DCI financial or touring committment. Any one of several corps would have turned in any one of several other corps if they had found the same egregious evidence of foul play. Cavaliers just happened to be the corps with the proof, and the Muchachos just happened to be the corps most abusing the rules. No conspiracy theory at work. Only good folks wanting everyone to play by the rules - and not to completely flaunt them with disrespect. IMHO, it is virtually impossible to state that the Muchachos management was unaware of the fact that they had at least several overage members. And it surely was not the first year they did it. I stood next to the Muchachos at retreat during my ageout year at Finals in 1974. I can tell you that they had overage members. Geez . . . not even remotely discreet about it! Get serious. The Cavaliers were also not trying to get Muchachos disqualified for any specific competitive reasons. We were only a middle of the road Finalist back then. We weren't competitive with Muchachos in the least. Maybe we would have been had they not had so many overage members, but we didn't disqualify them so we could move up one place. Who cares. Anyway, the score sheets were definitely NEVER totaled. The judges did NOT get togehter and compare notes to come up with a total score. I personally asked Don Angelica about this before he died and he said he knew nothing of that. He was one of the top judges back then and the longtime Judges Coordinator for DCI. After Don Pesceone met with the DCI directors with the evidence he asked them what he should do with the untabulated sheets. He was told to destroy them. He did so, without ever adding up the score. End of story - if you choose to believe the people who were actually involved in a position of knowledge and authority. Maybe it is time for the management team of the Muchachos to discuss publicly if they knew of their many overage members. They are as much to blame as any of the overage kids in the corps. I find it hard to believe they did not know. Paul Milano Well many good points made and I would have to agree with most of what you say BUT I also have talked to people involved and were also in the tab area and they say YES they were tabulated and told destroy them now..Anyway no matter iwhat is said or by what side it will always be hear say if you were there or not. The characters you speak of were not exactly the salt of the earth either...Nor is anyone. Did Hawthorne do wrong YES did many others including corps involved YES is there more to it than is and was said FOR SURE YES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danguernsey Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I am not so sure about that - because hindsight is 20/20. My point was that one of the premises of DCI - is that on any given night - any corps can pull off a job and win. Hawthorne - with or without overage members - was getting kicked around prior to CYO Nationals. But at CYO - with the same kids that had been marching all season - they pulled a showed out of their buttocks and drove the audience - and many judges - wild.As a FMM - I know when we were smoking another corps - and then one night they decide to go 15 rounds with us - it woke us up. It's easy to say that Madison wasn't concerned now - but I'd like to hear from someone that remembers the tension that the prevailed that last week. Not much worry about Hawthorne on our end. At CYO and DCI week, we had a an "offensive" take no prisoners mindset, and not a "defensive" compete "not to lose" one. We were hitting our stride at that moment, pretty much dominating and not just eking out wins. As Matt noted, we won CYO by nearly 2 pts., despite Hawthorne's near perfect drum show. Yet, that is not say we were cocky and complacent either--1974 was very fresh in our memories. We were very confident being in the driver's seat, but not taking the competition for granted. That applied especially to SCV--they had a say in the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommytimp Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Did Hawthorne do wrong YES did many others including corps involved YES is there more to it than is and was said FOR SURE YES. Is that your tribute to "Ulysses?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobrien Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) Is that your tribute to "Ulysses?" Were Molly Bloom a Valley Girl then Yes Fer Sure Yes t'would be Edited July 21, 2009 by mobrien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad75 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Not much worry about Hawthorne on our end. At CYO and DCI week, we had a an "offensive" take no prisoners mindset, and not a "defensive" compete "not to lose" one. We were hitting our stride at that moment, pretty much dominating and not just eking out wins. As Matt noted, we won CYO by nearly 2 pts., despite Hawthorne's near perfect drum show. Yet, that is not say we were cocky and complacent either--1974 was very fresh in our memories. We were very confident being in the driver's seat, but not taking the competition for granted. That applied especially to SCV--they had a say in the matter. I'll echo everything Dan G. said. We were on a mission and our attitude was that we were not going to be denied. We were so close to our end game at CYO, we could taste it. Everyone of us knew that we had to exercise the demons of 74' and there was NO letting up! But I distinctly remember that there was a degree of trepidation before taking the field at CYO. We hadn't seen Hawthorne yet, and it was so late in the season. All I can remember were stories floating around of them being portrayed as larger then life world beaters. Well, I recall that the fact of us not seeing Hawthorne yet actually caused us to step it up a few more notches, and even though nobody has mentioned it here, we put on a phenomenal performance at CYO! All I know is that the end result of us handily beating Hawthorne was both a sigh of relief and a huge confidence booster. Going into DCI week, there was a look in everyone's eye's that "this was it"! Sure, there was some fun, but it was all business. And as I recall, sure, we respected everyone and didn't take anyone for granted, but there remained only one corps that was at the top of our, "get that monkey off of our backs" concern list, and that was SCV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoutnout Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Thanks for that riveting account of facts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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