3rd_Star_Brigade Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I would agree that Open Class fans would appreciate seeing corps like BDB and SCVC at Open Class Finals than first thing WC Quarterfinals morning, when odds are the stands would only have the BDB and SCVC fans/staff/supporters at that time. Not to mention, I would not go to Open Class Prelims/Finals if I knew that the "REAL" Open Class Champions/medalists were in WC Quarters and not competing in Open Class (per the OP's original, IMO asinine, suggestion). Not to mention the strong possibility that the Open Class Champ could knock a corps out of WC semis, deny said WC corps the following year's payday as a Semifinalist, receive a possible payday as a Semifinalist, and yet still compete in Open Class. IMO, the way it is right now is the best for everyone, except maybe for some DCP'ers who fail to understand the reasoning by the DCI Board for the current rules. If I said it once, I said it a thousand times: The scoring system, and subsequent placement in DCI World Class Quarter and Semi Finals, used should not impact World Class Corps whose competitive placement for Semi-Finals and a Finals seat is in competition with the Open Class Corps. (In other words, if an Open Class Corps is in 12th and makes finals, there would be 13 corps on finals night, if two open class corps score a 17th place seat and an 18th place seat, there are 19 corps at semis) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 If I said it once, I said it a thousand times:The scoring system, and subsequent placement in DCI World Class Quarter and Semi Finals, used should not impact World Class Corps whose competitive placement for Semi-Finals and a Finals seat is in competition with the Open Class Corps. (In other words, if an Open Class Corps is in 12th and makes finals, there would be 13 corps on finals night, if two open class corps score a 17th place seat and an 18th place seat, there are 19 corps at semis) ? So the Open Class corps are just token performances: what's the point?! Why not have the Top 3 corps perform at World Class finals before the WC Finalists? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rd_Star_Brigade Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 ?So the Open Class corps are just token performances: what's the point?! Why not have the Top 3 corps perform at World Class finals before the WC Finalists? because it gives them the chance to rank, without robbing the moment of performance in semis or finals from a World Class corps. Also, OC corps have the opportunity to win world class if they are that good as the system effects the number of corps slotted and not the worth of world vs. open class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) If I said it once, I said it a thousand times:The scoring system, and subsequent placement in DCI World Class Quarter and Semi Finals, used should not impact World Class Corps whose competitive placement for Semi-Finals and a Finals seat is in competition with the Open Class Corps. (In other words, if an Open Class Corps is in 12th and makes finals, there would be 13 corps on finals night, if two open class corps score a 17th place seat and an 18th place seat, there are 19 corps at semis) I don't know ... this sounds a little patronizing to me. Like that little kid in the neighborhood that you let play baseball with you and you let him hit and run around the bases so he feels involved, but you don't count his score becuase you big kids are playing a "real" game. I understand what you're getting at, but it just seems a little patronizing to me. JMO Edited July 31, 2009 by Liam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rd_Star_Brigade Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I don't know ... this sounds a little patronizing to me. Like that little kid in the neighborhood that you let play baseball with you and you let him hit and run around the bases so he feels involved, but you don't count his score becuase you big kids are playing a "real" game.I understand what you're getting at, but it just seems a little patronizing to me. JMO well, to be fair, you haven't been competing as a world class corps. let's face it. Open Class is the little kid. Much of the members are younger and less experienced and the corps are smaller and less well equiped. But, if they have the program and talent, they should be given the option to perform for a bigger crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rd_Star_Brigade Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 well, to be fair, you haven't been competing as a world class corps. let's face it. Open Class is the little kid. Much of the members are younger and less experienced and the corps are smaller and less well equiped. But, if they have the program and talent, they should be given the option to perform for a bigger crowd. plus, i did say that they would keep their score and placement, but only the berth cutoff would change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 plus, i did say that they would keep their score and placement, but only the berth cutoff would change. I understand, and I do get what you're going for here. I do believe that DCI could do much more in leveraging the premier WC event to increase marketing opportunities and exposure for OC corps -- I just think there are better ways to do it, that's all. JMO, and no offense -- all ideas are worth discussing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusankusho Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 several reasons:OC judging standards are different. you're looking at a score drop of 12-20 points from WC to OC sheets. so, say you pop a 95 on OC sheets, then a 77 on WC sheets. Just how is that going to draw fans? the corps scoring 77 on WC sheets dont get #### now. First off - the kids will understand this, or should have it explained by the staff. Second - they may score lower, but do you really think the lower score will not still be competetive with, and better than, a couple pf WC corps? next...yes, a WC corps or two could be bumped. think how that could affect that corps in all the wrong ways?? so...you want to promote OC corps, even if it could hurt a WC corps? This is the objection I raised before - the only legit one IMHO. But at the same time, if they are getting beaten by OC, maybe they should not be where they are. I know there's a money thing, but there should also be a quality criteria to be in WC, don't you think? finally...OC has their own set of issues they don't do a ###### thing about. Until they begin to help themselves, why should WC corps help out? Even if you dont agree with where WC is going, at least the are proactive in taking the steps they feel they need to take. OC still cant get themselves paid. First thing this makes me think is that you just invalidated your "nobody in OC is asking to get into WC quarters" argument. It's just another on a list of 'to-dos' that they haven't gotten to yet. But even if OC does have issues to address (and I agree they do) - that doesn't bar them from competing with the WC boys. oh and I'd say OC directors ARE opposed to it. they have had 6 years to propose what you all want, and they haven't said a word about it Dealt with that a couple of points above. This in no way proves they would not participate if the opportunity was there. But perhaps an opt-out option would be a good thing. If a corps medals in OC but is opposed to the concept, they can step aside and let the 4th place corps take their place. Good luck explaining that to your members though.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmroth1 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) A few problems:1) It's quite possible that 2/3 of the Top OC corps would be SCVC and BDB. These corps obviously have zero plans to every compete in World Class. Sure, it might be nice 'bragging rights' to say they beat X amount of World Class corps (and they would bother beat some WC corps), but what's the point? 2) Open Class finals would be meaningless if the Top 3 Open Class corps are no longer competing: especially if 2/3 are BDB and SCVC who are not going to ever compete in World Class on a regular basis. You would take out what would inevitably be the Open Class Champion, and probably at least 2/3 medalists, and you would water down the Finalists to include corps who only got in because the Top 3 corps were taken out of the equation. I can't imagine taking the most exciting three corps from Open Class competition would make the crowds larger, and in fact I would bet it would make the Prelims/Finals crowd significantly smaller. 3) This is similar to what the old way used to be, only the Top Open Class (then Div. 2 and Div. 3) corps used to finish out their season in Championships and then move on to Quarterfinals. I used to LOVE that corps could be competitive in Div. 2 AND Open Class (see Les Etoiles winning Div. 2 in 96, then making Semi's). But as corps had to adjust budgets to go from touring in Open to World Class, financial issues arose and corps folded (see Les Etoiles' last season in 99 after just 3 years of competing in World Class). I think DCI's financial oversight committee that decides which corps is financially able to compete in WC is a great method that seems to work. Academy recently had no problems competing in Div. 2 one year and World Class the next: Jersey Surf seems to be OK this year. Mandarins and Blue Stars have been fine as well. If an Open Class corps wants to make the jump to World Class to "see how they would do," they can see if they are financially stable enough: if they aren't they SHOULDN'T be competing in World Class and should wait until they are. As an Open Class fan I have no problems with the way things are now. I've heard no rumblings from DCI meetings regarding Open Class directors wanting to change the system now, and I see no reason to. To respond: First of all, The OC Championship Series does not eliminate any corps from competing in OC finals. ALL OC corps continue to compete in OC semi's/prelims and finals. NO change accept you are adding two additional corps to the Indy line up that are currently excluded. I think the discussion around the Cadet corps competing in the OC Championship Series is something to talk about, however where we will end up having the largest difference of opinion is in your final statement about the DCI financial overview committee. I do not in anyway think this system works. I could eliminate oh say a WC World champion from competing in WC finals if that is the argument that is going to be used. Many WC corps are having financial difficulties whats the difference? They've been better competitively? Edited July 31, 2009 by bmroth1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wishbonecav Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) now we're getting somewhere... I think the "plus 1" format could get some support...i Over the years, here are the instances of a Division 1 / WC corps being "bumped" by a DII-III/ Open corps: 1989 SemiFinals goes to a Top 17 Format and, in 11 years, only one corps gets bumped. 1996 Academie Musicale finishes 18th, bumped by Les Etoiles (15th)...Musicale is a former DII...and they're from Quebec. Then it gets more common: 2000 Troopers (18) and Kiwanis (19) bumped by SCVC (16) and Mandarins (17) 2001 Pioneer (18) and Troopers (19) bumped by Mandarins (16) and Cascades (17); Pioneer misses Semi's by .05 2002 Southwind (18) bumped by Capital Regiment (17) by .05 This gives me pause. Troopers, Pioneer, Kiwanis and Southwind did the tour. Troopers struggled, but they were still the Troopers. Pioneer and Southwind threw their hat in the ring and added to the customer's value at every DCI show. To miss out on the reward of SemiFinals (by .05) probably hurt Pioneer and Southwind more than it helped Mandarins or Capital Regiment. As the OP, I might have to admit that my view is tempered. Let's add these stats to the conversation . Edited July 31, 2009 by wishbonecav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.