Technical sound questions for theater

[bartyount]

In our theater the bass was so high that when a synth was playing with the corps, you could not hear the hornline. The bass was shaking the seats; and not in a good way.

A guy asked them to turn up the volume after Madison left the field. Other than the bass, it sounded good.

That was me.

You'd think that with an event named "Big, Loud and Live" they'd have a clue.

We had to ask again cause they didn't turn it up enough the first time. I shoulda asked them to turn down the bass. You couldn't hear Madison at all due to the synth bass swallowing everything up. After they turned the volume up the second time the sound was much better though. I don't know if the problem with Madison was a theater sound balance issue or the corps' sound balance issue.

[CasualFan]

I am watching the Open Class webcast right now and it is a completely different sound. It honestly sounds as bad as the San Antonio webcast with the reverb and echo. I am assuming that the audio is fairly raw for the webcast and it makes me think that Tom Blair's audio crew did a lot work trying to cancel out the reverb. This may be a part of the reason the audio was softer this year.

[Bond624]

I don't know if this was covered anywhere yet.

I was in North Brunswick NJ and our Video was bad. It was Dark The Blues Were Green The yellows were pink. The Colts Colors on the field were BLACK I felt like I was watching a broken TV I think we would have been better with Just black and white. Oh and then throw in the Delay, That made any impact into Im______________pact..

Oh and yes The Syns bass just made the chords Blah Weird. Oh well what can I do just have to live with it . It is what it is.

Although I did like it when corps had to be CREATIVE to make the sounds they needed. Now it just a finger tip away. The EASY BUTTON has made its way to drum corps :)

[Peel Paint]

I'm glad many theaters did it somewhat better or even lots better. Does anyone have any technical expertise that might help me make a request for improvements from our local theater?

Some of the boominess in the cinecast occurs because theaters use subwoofers set for action films.

Some of the boominess in the cinecast was the original sound, what they were hearing in Lucas Oil, as you can tell if you read those threads. Corps are using electronics to emphasize the bass and it was drowning out the contras in the stadium, for some corps, because of Lucas Oil's boomy structure, and as pointed out elsewhere, Tom's crew's mikes are right near corps' speakers, so what's being amplified gets picked up in spades.

DCP member Cardman is a theater manager and hangs out here. He's had suggestions in other threads for dealing with low-sound complaints and will probably find yours later today or tonight. He ascribes these problems to lazy theater employees.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Peel Paint

[SoundmanG]

Knowing nothing about sound systems in theaters, I have some presumptions that I'd like to put out to you folks who might be experts at this.

I'm not a projectionist but I have spent twenty years making my living as a film sound mixer and although most of my theatrical experience is with IMAX equipment I'll give you my 2 cents worth.

1. Because Big, Loud and Live is mostly an acoustic event, the theaters don't know how to handle the sound. It's not pre-recorded and enhanced like they're used to. So, when we ask them to turn it up, they simply turn up the volume a little tiny bit and then wonder why we're all still complaining about it because it's just some band thing. I asked for volume bumps 4 times. They went from 7.5 up to 10...

The problem, as you noted is that this is not a film soundtrack but rather a live event. Two completely different animals. It's not that the theaters don't know how to handle this event it's just that they are limited in what they can do.

All 35mm movie theaters are theoretically set up to standard SMPTE specifications regarding Sound Pressure Levels, EQ Curves and Bass Management. Most theaters use Dolby Cinema Processors that can't be easily manipulated by the projectionist. They will often have only a master gain knob that allows them to raise or lower the overall volume by +/- 6db. That's really all their system will allow them to do without time consuming re-programming of the Cinema Processor. Even then 6db may not be enough or it may push the Low Frequency to unacceptable levels. It really depends on how well the theater is set up to begin with.

If the remote truck doing the live mix is not set to the same specifications as the theaters with regards to SPL, EQ and Bass Management then it's anybodies guess as to what the mix in the theaters is going to sound like. Imagine trying to mix the show for 340 different theaters all with differing audio specs. All DCI can really do is make it sound good in the truck, after that it's out of their control. Ideally each theater would be set to very specific specs that matched the remote truck. Then there would be a consistently good sound in every theater (assuming the mixer is any good of course).

2. The other presumption I have is that they don't know how to adjust their bass response to an appropriate level for this event. I think that's why so many of us in the theaters thought we were hearing bad balance from the field.

Depending on what type of audio signal is being fed to the theater and where it's being inserted into the signal path there may be no way to adjust the Bass without re-programming the Dolby Cinema Processor. Again the mix may sound fine in the truck but who knows how they're monitoring the Low End and is it anywhere close to how the theaters are monitoring it.

Those are my 2 presumptions. If I'm anywhere close to right, can DCI tell Fathom to send a BIG HONKING SIGN to each theater that says "THIS IS A LIVE ACOUSTIC EVENT THAT NEEDS SOME VERY SPECIFIC SOUND ATTENTION. PLEASE BE PREPARED TO MAKE ADJUSTMENTS AT THE REQUESTS OF PATRONS, INCLUDING BASS ADJUSTMENTS."

Yes, I'll be writing to the theater, its parent company, Fathom and DCI.

In reality it would require a sound engineer going to every theater and setting up each sound system to exact specifications and then making sure the show is mixed to these exact same specs. And that's going to cost a lot more than a big honking sign.

[RickCogley]

Tom Blair was interviewed for the DCI Field Pass at the end of the season about the various broadcasts, and was commenting about how hard it is to get the theaters to set the volume correctly. Check it out, it's a good interview.

[TerriTroop]

Thank you thank you thank you for your very informative and detailed response. Now I can at least understand the technical problems and cut the theater a tiny bit more slack.

I'm not a projectionist but I have spent twenty years making my living as a film sound mixer and although most of my theatrical experience is with IMAX equipment I'll give you my 2 cents worth.

The problem, as you noted is that this is not a film soundtrack but rather a live event. Two completely different animals. It's not that the theaters don't know how to handle this event it's just that they are limited in what they can do.

All 35mm movie theaters are theoretically set up to standard SMPTE specifications regarding Sound Pressure Levels, EQ Curves and Bass Management. Most theaters use Dolby Cinema Processors that can't be easily manipulated by the projectionist. They will often have only a master gain knob that allows them to raise or lower the overall volume by +/- 6db. That's really all their system will allow them to do without time consuming re-programming of the Cinema Processor. Even then 6db may not be enough or it may push the Low Frequency to unacceptable levels. It really depends on how well the theater is set up to begin with.

If the remote truck doing the live mix is not set to the same specifications as the theaters with regards to SPL, EQ and Bass Management then it's anybodies guess as to what the mix in the theaters is going to sound like. Imagine trying to mix the show for 340 different theaters all with differing audio specs. All DCI can really do is make it sound good in the truck, after that it's out of their control. Ideally each theater would be set to very specific specs that matched the remote truck. Then there would be a consistently good sound in every theater (assuming the mixer is any good of course).

Depending on what type of audio signal is being fed to the theater and where it's being inserted into the signal path there may be no way to adjust the Bass without re-programming the Dolby Cinema Processor. Again the mix may sound fine in the truck but who knows how they're monitoring the Low End and is it anywhere close to how the theaters are monitoring it.

In reality it would require a sound engineer going to every theater and setting up each sound system to exact specifications and then making sure the show is mixed to these exact same specs. And that's going to cost a lot more than a big honking sign.

[TerriTroop]

Tom Blair was interviewed for the DCI Field Pass at the end of the season about the various broadcasts, and was commenting about how hard it is to get the theaters to set the volume correctly. Check it out, it's a good interview.

Thanks Rick! I'll give it a listen!

[TRBlair]

I'm not a projectionist but I have spent twenty years making my living as a film sound mixer and although most of my theatrical experience is with IMAX equipment I'll give you my 2 cents worth.

The problem, as you noted is that this is not a film soundtrack but rather a live event. Two completely different animals. It's not that the theaters don't know how to handle this event it's just that they are limited in what they can do.

All 35mm movie theaters are theoretically set up to standard SMPTE specifications regarding Sound Pressure Levels, EQ Curves and Bass Management. Most theaters use Dolby Cinema Processors that can't be easily manipulated by the projectionist. They will often have only a master gain knob that allows them to raise or lower the overall volume by +/- 6db. That's really all their system will allow them to do without time consuming re-programming of the Cinema Processor. Even then 6db may not be enough or it may push the Low Frequency to unacceptable levels. It really depends on how well the theater is set up to begin with.

If the remote truck doing the live mix is not set to the same specifications as the theaters with regards to SPL, EQ and Bass Management then it's anybodies guess as to what the mix in the theaters is going to sound like. Imagine trying to mix the show for 340 different theaters all with differing audio specs. All DCI can really do is make it sound good in the truck, after that it's out of their control. Ideally each theater would be set to very specific specs that matched the remote truck. Then there would be a consistently good sound in every theater (assuming the mixer is any good of course).

Depending on what type of audio signal is being fed to the theater and where it's being inserted into the signal path there may be no way to adjust the Bass without re-programming the Dolby Cinema Processor. Again the mix may sound fine in the truck but who knows how they're monitoring the Low End and is it anywhere close to how the theaters are monitoring it.

In reality it would require a sound engineer going to every theater and setting up each sound system to exact specifications and then making sure the show is mixed to these exact same specs. And that's going to cost a lot more than a big honking sign.

Well put, SoundmanG!

[Jeff Ream]

honestly, the bass would have been just as bad live. has been all year.

but most theaters dont remember from year to year.

we sell out every year in Harrisburg...so what do they do this year...put us in a smaller theater, then scramble to open up a second when more people come rolling in.

ever year we tell them to crank it. and finally by the 4th corps, it happens. once i even called the office from my phone in the theater