Do off field events affect scores ?

[BRASSO]

Here's one...

I marched in Corps A under instructor X who is also a BOA judge.

I taught at H.S. Band B under director Y who is also a DCI judge.

Judge Y tanks us at DCI Finals, Judge X tanks us at BOA grand nats the following fall. C

Coincidence? Possibly... However I had an idea before each performance how the scores were gonna end up, and sure enough...

I'm sure this happens more often than most realize.

I hear you. But I warn you...With all these letters, I'm sure somebody is going to provide their own letters to this tale :

" BS "

Edited November 19, 2009 by BRASSO

[newterak]

Eh, i wouldnt blame them, but at least one can infer how that scenario inevitably exists and the possibilities of it affecting a judge who isnt 100% objective.

[Paralda]

Judges are still human. They have a really hard job, too. I honestly believe that most, if not all judges, try to be as unbiased as they possibly can. This, while juggling numbers late season (they don't want to give the 3rd to last Corps a 19.8 in visual because they're afraid if the 2nd to last and last Corps are better visually, they'd give someone a perfect 20), or while trying to to inflate the scores at more secluded events, or while trying to appear unbiased by making sure they don't give their old Corps too high of a score, or any number of things cause them to have an immensely difficult job. Sure, scores are probably more subjective than they are objective, but not every judge is out to screw X Corps because they're from Y Corps.

[BRASSO]

Of course off field events can have an effect on scores.

Here are some examples:

If 4 judges miss their plane and can't get to the show on time, it will effect scores.

Beyond the critique example listed above, if there are further "parking lot critiques" or "back at the hotel bar (who's buying the next round?) critiques", that will likely effect scores.

If a corps director misses the part of the annual winter meeting where they determine the final outcome and placement of all of the corps for the upcoming season, that will most definitely effect scores.

And, that's just three off the top of my (tin foil covered) head.

It IS all a conspiracy.

4 judges fly together ?... Who knew ?

[BRASSO]

IN MY OPINION...

It is impossible for a judge to come in with zero bias. In a perfect world, that would be the case, but judges are human beings, humans have emotions, and emotions can sometimes dictate actions to an extent.

While making assumptions in your scenarios, there are SO MANY other variables that would more than likely be factored in:

1) at what time of the season does this happen? If it's early in the season and a judge is getting a first read, they will be hard pressed to have pinpointed the full intent of the show design, as well as assess the talent level of the members. If it's later in the season and a judge has seen the corps multiple times, has had conversations with staff regarding intent, and might feel as though they have a good grasp on the talent level/execution of the corps.

2) how did the corps perform? Did they nearly perfectly maintain the intervals of the holes and execute the show at a consistent level, albeit minus a dozen members? Did the show have a lot of scary moments due to key members missing?

3) who was the judging panel? Lets face it, for every corps some judges are fans of the show, and some are not. If you have a sympathetic judging panel, they might overlook the holes and reward the performing members for performing despite the circumstances. If it's a judge that's not a fan of the show design, they might be even more critical of the holes, especially if there are other performance issues because of the holes.

The reasons for holes often have an affect on the members and how they perform. If there is a ton of internal strife or something, the performance will probably reflect that and not be a great show. If there are a bunch of sick members, the healthy members on the field might pull out a great performance in honor of their fallen brothers and sisters.

Our activity is so unique in the fact that the members are a) kids and b) not professionals. Their performances vary from night to night. It's not like viewing two different cuts of a film, where everything around the changed scenes is exactly the same and only the different edits are the same. For example, with the directors cut of the Abyss, the subtle symbolic story of war is made quite literal, but the strong acting by the leads remains in both versions. In drum corps, one corps could have a near perfect show one night, and a flat and flawed one the next (how often do you hear of a corps who has the show of the summer the week before finals).

Also, as I said before, not all holes are equal. Spirt of Atlanta marching holes in June due to not filling out the horn line will not get the credit that SCV gets marching holes in late July because of a serious flu epidemic. I've heard judges tapes and talked to judges in June who've flat out said "I can't give you credit until you close the holes," and sure enough the holes filled/were closed and the Vis/GE scores rose.

You said above : " not all holes are equal ". I believe this to be true as well. It just illustrates the difficulty that judges have when they are asked to assign value to holes that Corps come on the field with. In addition, some of these Corps go on the tour and the hole( s ) are there for a protracted period of time. And each judge no doubt has a different image in their head when they try to pretend the hole is filled and to try and determine whether or not a marching performer filling that hole would likely have executed the moves well,.. poorly,... or something in between. Tough job, being a judge. When we ask judges to sometimes judge the invisible, things really do get a bit dicey when it comes to adequately scoring Corps.

Edited November 19, 2009 by BRASSO

[euponitone]

You're one of the few on here who truly thinks clearly.

There are a lot of Cadets fans who are trying to justify Cadets losing to Crown most of the season and at finals by saying that Crown's show was "easier, but better performed" and that "Cadets would have won if the fall hadn't happened" and "blah,blah,blah,blah".

The fact of the matter is, Crown was a better drum corps all around this summer. The Cadets didn't come close to touching Crown musically (Crown did win overall music all 3 nights of finals). Yeah, they definitely had a cleaner guard than Crown. Its debatable that they marched better (although Crown beat them in field visual finals night).

The Cadets were a very good drum corps this summer...in fact, calling them simply "very good" would be a disservice to them because they were truly wonderful. However, it took a little something special in the visual department to overcome what Crown was putting out musically, and this year, only the Blue Devils really did that.

Trying to make excuses for why your favorite drum corps didn't beat "x" drum corps is useless. I fully acknowledge that Crown (being a favorite of mine) did NOT deserve to win DCI this year. I acknowledge that it has nothing to do with "getting screwed" or "mishaps" but has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they simply did not march as well as the Blue Devils this year. AND BD's guard was insane.

You all have your opinions though...and I really can't fault you if thats how you truly feel.

Haha....now, now, dont get me wrong - I thought the cadets were better than crown by the end of the season. They did, after all beat them head to head at crowns home show, and the cadets home show (last of the year before quarters). Im just saying that in early july (when this 'instance' occured), I saw the cadets and crown back to back, and thought crown was clearly better at the time. The demand was absolutely there, and IMO, pretty close to the cadets in terms of most things. Thats why I had no problem with crown beating them at the time, even with the holes. By allentown, and quarters (when I last saw them), I thought HNC was better, but oh well, does it really make a difference? I mean if placements are really your thing, then we're debating over who was 'first loser' and who was 'second loser'. Cadets and Crown were the top 2 corps all years in my book, and nothing that happened at finals or elsewhere changed that...