When corps made the jump to Bb, why no marching horn?

[BrassClef]

As a horn major and recent age out who spent his summer behind a mellophone, I have to ask: When all the corps switched to Bb horns, why did they take the F mello over the Bb marching horn? I'm talking about this one:

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/winds/marchingbrass/frenchhorns/yhr-302m/?mode=model

I've been tooling around on one and I find it no more difficult than an F mellophone.

I ask this because when the entire REST of the horn line is in Bb, and on the same valve series us horns have to be on completely different series that sucks to try and tune.

It just got me wondering...

[Shadow_7]

Because they got rid of french horns and they have trumpets to play the 3rd trumpet part. It's more or less to bridge the octave between trumpet and baritone. And maybe other considerations like price, weight, build, bore size, or whatever a corps feels is important. Perhaps some inclination that the extra tubing would increase resistance and lead to better phrasing. Lots of could be scenarios. The only one who knows (or just didn't know any better) is the one signing the check for the purchase. Unless they were free, then why wouldn't you?

I tried out the F and Bb Kanstuls after DCI 2007. And while there wasn't much difference, I felt that the F horn was easier to play. But I'm a native low brass player, so it could just be that. Or at least I thought that I was at one time.

[Shadow_7]

I just noticed that you linked to the Bb french horn, not mello. I tried frenchie in 2005. Pros and cons. Generally though they do cost more. But beyond that without the bent leadpipe like the Kanstul french horn, down stream players tend to tilt their head too much. And at least for me, if you're even slightly dehydrated, that really affects your ability to play. And competitive fields shows tend towards always being dehydrated. Two hour warmup and waiting on the field 20-ish minutes before you get to do your show. Generally without access to water or facilities. Plus summers down here are brutal. When I switched to mello during that last two weeks of 2005, I was working 1/3rd as hard for 3x's the volume. Or so it seemed.

Edit: I also tried a Yamaha frenchie at DCI 2007. I'm not sure if it was the same model, but it was so squirrelly, I wondered why they bothered putting valves on it. You could literally hit any note with any fingering. Or so it seemed. Most of the other brands of french horns I've tried, while not the same slotting as other brasses, were noticeably easier to know where you were on the horn.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Shadow_7

[BMBob]

As another horn player, I will say that I find the lack of horns to be of an extremely practical basis. The Bb marching French horn, at least every make I've tried, is a vastly inferior and more difficult instrument to play (well and in tune), especially in the upper register, than the mellophone. Additionally, the sound "breaks" much earlier in the dynamic spectrum, meaning that one cannot play as loudly with as tasteful a sound. The fact that it's pithed lower than a mello means that if you're playing similar parts, you're playing well into the upper partials. If you're playing lower parts, you're basically in the same range as the upper and middle baritones, and the tone color is not very different from these instruments.

I think the yearning from horn players for a marching French horn is based on missing that orchestral horn sound, but the fact is that the sound we're thinking of is NEVER going to be present on the field without concert horns (which have seen good use in some marching bands for limited sections of shows, but I've always seen as a novelty). In my opinion, we need to just accept that this sound is missing. A drum corps is much closer to a British brass band setup than an orchestral brass setup, and nobody complains about the lack of horns in the great brass bands of the world.

While I'm on the topic, I'm also strongly AGAINST using horn mouthpieces on mellophones. They don't match the leadpipe correctly, and the two aren't designed to work together. Trying to make a mellophone sound like a horn is a losing battle - it's better to realize what a good mellophone sound is and shoot for that. There are options out there to alter horns and mouthpieces to make the setup more "familiar" for horn players. Mouthpieces can be made with screw rims and a horn rim can be duplicated to fit on a mello cup. Also, some customizers, especially Patterson Hornworks (www.hornworks.com) have come up with some great ideas to make the transition less of a change. Personally, I feel that as long as you are very aware of what your embouchure is doing with both instruments/mouthpieces, the situation should not have a negative impact on either. Look at JD Shaw, as well as an article in the most recent Horn Call (from the International Horn Society), which focuses on "creative" hornists, including one who routinely doubles on a number of other brass instruments, and specifically decries the idea that this is damaging to her horn embouchure.

Sorry this was such a long response, but these issues hit home with me, and as someone who is a horn player, but also occasionally plays other brass instruments, teaches young brass players, and has arranged for several different situations, I've developed some strong opinions on this stuff.

[Puppet]

You have got to go back a long way (30+ Years at least!) to find a reason to field a Horn in any configuration. BITD, and this was before the advent of Mellophones on the field, the French Horn (in G) was the bridge between lower register sopranos and the Baritone horns. Marching the way we did- pounding the turf with our knees up and elbows out doing the military turns and so forth - keeping that little mouthpiece in place putting out volume was a true chore. And a Mello with a french horn mouthpiece is as crappy a sound as one could ever imagine. Unless you put a trumpet mouthpiece in a Tuba!

Puppet

[JonW]

Going back aways again, as difficult as they were to play, there were some really juicy parts written for the frenchs and mellos. Some gorgeous tones followed with some tricky sailing over the scales - it's still amazing what was achieved BITD.

[GDeJesus]

As a horn major and recent age out who spent his summer behind a mellophone, I have to ask: When all the corps switched to Bb horns, why did they take the F mello over the Bb marching horn? I'm talking about this one:

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/winds/marchingbrass/frenchhorns/yhr-302m/?mode=model

I've been tooling around on one and I find it no more difficult than an F mellophone.

I ask this because when the entire REST of the horn line is in Bb, and on the same valve series us horns have to be on completely different series that sucks to try and tune.

It just got me wondering...

The main issue of concern for most educators when making the decision is probably the fact that the partials on a French Horn are closer together than those on any other brass instruments. French Horn is an instrument that is notoriously difficult to play well consistently because of that fact. Pitch Accuracy issues are enough of an issue in marching music, we don't need to compound the issue by fielding instruments that are at a natural disadvantage.

[HornsUp]

Blame the brass arrangers. They don't want 'em.

The percussion arrangers want every toy in the book. They're a grownup version of the kid who always had to have the full box of 64 crayon colors.

The brass writers were the kid who had only a tray of 4 poster paints.

[randomnoise]

The main issue of concern for most educators when making the decision is probably the fact that the partials on a French Horn are closer together than those on any other brass instruments. French Horn is an instrument that is notoriously difficult to play well consistently because of that fact. Pitch Accuracy issues are enough of an issue in marching music, we don't need to compound the issue by fielding instruments that are at a natural disadvantage.

This argument doesn't fly with me for three reasons:

1. I play Horn and I do so in corps with no problems. It is true that the partials are closer together on Bb marching horns, but if you are a quality player, this is definitely achievable, especially given how much time drum corps put into perfecting their act.

2. The partials are no closer together than the partials that a lead player on a trumpet or baritone faces while playing in the upper register.

3. The Kanstul 284. This is an alto F, bell-front horn that has exactly the same partials as a Mellophone. Sweet playing instrument.

Someday, a top corps will win with a mix of instruments other than the standard 4 instruments, and it will change.

Maybe.

Edited July 14, 2011 by randomnoise

[G-horns]

Blame the brass arrangers. They don't want 'em.

The percussion arrangers want every toy in the book. They're a grownup version of the kid who always had to have the full box of 64 crayon colors.

The brass writers were the kid who had only a tray of 4 poster paints.

And, as we both know only too well, BITD the poster paints didn't always blend well. (Meaning, there were missing notes in the chromatic series. I would love to see what some of the modern arrangers would do with THAT challenge.)