euponitone Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Really, though, this has been discussed quite a bit: drum corps is nothing more than pastiche, anyway . . .so the argument basically boils down to "who decided to steal from another art form first?" Absolutely... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plan9 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 (edited) The "Cirque" influence in drum corps predates both the Blue Devils and the Cavaliers recent stabs at it. Magic of Orlando in the mid-90's is probably a better starting point. There's no double standard: BD 2008 is more of an attempt to riff on Ferlinghetti (if I'm not mistaken, the movements of the show are direct lifts from some of the verses in his work) and the artist as a risk-taker than it is a channel of the vividly-colored "theatrical circus" that Cirque is. Really, though, this has been discussed quite a bit: drum corps is nothing more than pastiche, anyway . . .so the argument basically boils down to "who decided to steal from another art form first?" Well, you and I may both wear pants but so did our great grandfathers. Everyone steals from everyone....I get it! And I'm not suggesting that BD owns the rights to Cirque or that they are first to use theatrical circus, just that more recently they have been influenced by them. I also liked what CC and Cavies have done with movement and cirquesque style, I was simply reflecting on how DCP responded to similar shows. A suggestion that it's not always what's being done on the field, it's who's doing it. Edited August 17, 2011 by Plan9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plan9 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Or maybe people just liked what cavies did with it better? Taste. (and you never responded to my posts on this subject earlier when you wrote the exact same thing) I'm not sure what post you're refering to, that I failed to respond.....another thread? My point is simple: Taste, like or dislike be dam(n)ed.....critics on DCP use two sets of standards: BD and everyone else! Period! Does it matter or effect anything? Obviously not, I was simply saying it out loud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 What I find most interesting is when BD was doing all this wacky stuff in 2008, most of DCP was whining and #####ing about it not being proper drill or cheesy. When CC did it in 09 and Cavies did it this year.....no problem! Don't get me wrong....I loved both of those shows.....I just find the two different standards to be all too obvious. The cavaliers probably still marched more so-called "proper drill" than just about anyone...possibly even more than cadets...which is a big reason why those complaints probably didnt exist. Crown 09 isn't even in the ballpark when it comes to their movement technique, their show was still almost entirely standard marching...with A LOT of body movement thrown in suring the holds.... This one? Page 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bawker Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Taste, like or dislike be dam(n)ed.....critics on DCP use two sets of standards: BD and everyone else! Well, maybe some people do, but every corps has its detractors around here. Crown is "cheesy". the Cavaliers are "gimmicky", blah blah blah. I doubt most people here do much more than a subjective read on anyone's show . . .including the Blue Devils, and while I understand your fondness for the organization, I don't think the majority here holds BD to a different standard. Yes, you *could* play the "victim of their own success card" based off the title years recently, but, really, I don't know any title-winning corps that didn't get at least some dose of that the next year out, rightfully or not: 2009 Phantom (weak story, too repetitive thematically), 2006 Cadets (too far down the "rabbit hole" with narration and forced theme) and so on. Anyway, yay drum corps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plan9 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 This one? Page 2 Again, as I suggest earlier, you could do a side by side comparison of drill between the antics of the three shows and it might reveal you are correct. But, to me, that drill is simply a "place holder" for what defined the individual show's character. Ask the average moats in the stands what they remember about BD08, CC09 & Cavies11, they will probably only remember the antics, that's my point. So, were the critics correct on here in 08 when they said BD's drill was easy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 The other problem for you, Mr Plan, is that you haven't been around here long enough to see other corps get truly ripped apart. When the Cavaliers were dominant in the early part of the decade, they got constantly hammered (yes, even sometimes by me) for playing mf all the time, playing easy music books, and not marching and playing enough. Nowadays they move and play more, play pretty difficult stuff, and yes, they were actually loud this year... Does it also help that they havent won in 5 years???...maybe... When the Cadets went really 'out-there' in 2005-2008 - they got slammed on here constantly, and i promise you, it was worse than anything has dealt with lately. While people have booed at BD's scores and occasionally given them less than enthusiastic responses, they never actually booed the corps off the field (note - while the corps was standing there before their show...not at retreat). Admittedly, the worst case on dcp was also in 2007, because the Blue Devils (yes the 'double standard, unnappreciated' Blue Devils) had a traditional show design that a LOT of people loved and cheered for, and they were on the verge of getting beaten by a show that a bunch of very vocal people didn't like. In 2008, when the cadets design was (considered by most) to be even worse, it was more of a laughable curiosity, as they were safely in 5th place, where most people felt they belonged. From 2009-2011, however, Cadets have returned to more traditional programing, and aside from some sniping at little geoffrey, the approval of the "masses" came back. I guess what I'm saying is that you are noticing the right things for the wrong reasons. Are there some people that have a double standard, that have some axe to grind with BD and will never like them no matter what they do?? yup! but they are a small (but sometimes vocal) minority. I think what you are MOSTLY responding to (and misreading as a double-standard) is the people that just arent big fans of what BD is doing right now. Most of us can recognize their excellence, but the discontent comes when the 'unpopular' designs get rewarded over what many of us like to see - Note, this is exactly the same things that happened to the other of the 'big 3' corps this decade. You and I agree on one thing...the "BD Hate" is much worse when they are winning - case in point, there have been ZERO bd bashing threads since finals night, because they didn't win - but there were a dozen between atlanta and quarterfinals. It's just like in 2007 - Cadets were threatening to beat a show that most purists loved (they won the last show before quarters) with a design they couldn't stand, and the environment on here was downright poisonous at times, Yet in 2008, where they never sniffed 1st place, people still didn't like the show, but it wasn't as bad. So - really, its not a double standard. BD has been good for a long time, so in your mind and experience maybe it seems like it, but the same rules get applied to everyone. The Blue Devils have won, or been the favorite to win late season, for the past 5 years, so thats not surprising. Maybe if they wind up in 5th or something next year, I'll be able to prove my point, but somehow i dont think that's likely... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywhopper Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 (edited) I also liked what CC and Cavies have done with movement and cirquesque style, I was simply reflecting on how DCP responded to similar shows. A suggestion that it's not always what's being done on the field, it's who's doing it. You're being way too simplistic about how people react to shows. I disagree that BD 2008 is exactly comparable to Cavies 11 or Crown 09, but granting your assumption, maybe people around here just thought Crown and Cavies did "movement and cirquesque style" *better* than Blue Devils did. That's not a double standard. That's just a judgement call. I for one am ready for BD to do something new and thrilling in 2012. If I enjoy it, I'll root for it all season. If I don't enjoy it, then I might complain about it, or I might just ignore it. Same for every corps. Edited August 17, 2011 by skywhopper 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywhopper Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I think what you are MOSTLY responding to (and misreading as a double-standard) is the people that just arent big fans of what BD is doing right now. Most of us can recognize their excellence, but the discontent comes when the 'unpopular' designs get rewarded over what many of us like to see YES! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Again, as I suggest earlier, you could do a side by side comparison of drill between the antics of the three shows and it might reveal you are correct. But, to me, that drill is simply a "place holder" for what defined the individual show's character. I would disagree with that entirely. You yourself have constantly talked about how 'different' the blue devils write drill - how it is more of a stage show than it is a drum corps show (and this is a compliment coming from you). True or False - BD is the only Top corps NOT to use Pyware? I've heard from fairly reliable sources that BD drill learning is basically Jay Murphy on the field telling the members where to go. I'm sure they have some things charted, but to me it sounds like more winterguard / stage show than drum corps or marching band. Now - those comments are not an insult - far from it - since I as a drill writer wouldn't be able to write a 10 set GLEE show without the aid of sibelius and pyware to show me every note and move! That said, you are the biggest proponent here of how DIFFERENT the Blue Devils are in terms of show design, prop use, and their approach to movement in general, so it's pretty ironic that you now want to say the shows are similar, and complain of a 'double standard'. The ONLY similarity in these shows (crown 09, bd 08, and cavies 11) is that the themes have a vague sense of 'strangeness', or being in some other world where things are wacky. Literally, thats it. The way the three corps approached that idea are totally different. Crown actually had a narrative in their show, but still marched a traditional drill. The biggest 'new' thing for them was the body movement - instead of standing still, they introduced a lot of the 'bug squishing, leg twisting, hip gyrating' movement that has become pervassive in most shows, just 2 years later. Cavies show is even more traditional, at least to me. I could compare cavaliers 2011 to any cavies show over the past 10 years, and the similarities would be undeniable. The ending is 2008 samurai on steroids, and there are several DNA Helix moves, and variations of the diamondcutter block theyve done numerous times. If you think having a few people playing or conducting upside-down, in place, at three seperate moments in the show is a revolutionary and/or different approach to show design and movement, than i'm not sure what to tell you. Will people remember those moments more than some random drill move? sure...but its not even close to the majority of their show. By contrast, what BD started in 2008 was anything but superficial. They had their gimmicks too - the head twitching, tightroping, and chaplin body moves in the drum solo fit that category of memorable and effective gimmicks...like the upsidedown playing. The winterguard-like use of props (which has grown the past 4 years), the new approach to movement (more scatters and jazz running to forms) with less standard marching, IS a different approach to show design. There's really no point in arguing against that, because you have hundreds of posts saying the same thing over the past 3 seasons. We could argue all day about whether their approach is better / worse than others, or whether it deserves credit, but the fact is, it's DIFFERENT. It's not a double standard if people dont like that, it's taste. At best you could argue that it's "a lack of willingness to appreciate new things", but thats just being stubborn (aka, not the same as having an anti BD bias...) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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