King euph hand pains and cramps?

[Ch1k3n]

Hello!

So when I practice with my standard King euph holding it up and playing, I will get pretty severe pains/cramps in my left hand at the base of my left thumb. This only happens when I'm playing and not when I'm just holding the horn because when I'm playing, I press the valves down and that will push the horn bell down. Since the King is very bell heavy, this means I have to try to balance the horn and the way I can do that is with my thumb pushing down or trying to grip the valves harder. With the paddle thing that you push to extend the 3rd valve tuning slide in the position that it is, it is hard to do either so my thumb is left in a very uncomfortable position that eventually turns into a cramp that I cannot tolerate anymore and have to put the horn down.

I have tried holding the horn without pressing valves and seeing how my hands are then trying to keep it that way when I do press valves, but it is near impossible to keep the horn balanced while pressing the valves. The horn is very comfortable when you're not playing, but once you start playing it is near impossible (at least for me) to keep it balanced and not causing the bell to try to tip forward.

Does anyone have experience with this and have any remedies or suggestions?

Thanks so much!

[euphononium]

Let the horn's weight rest mostly on your index finger as it is stretched out. Don't try to grip or tighten anything you are doing with your hand, the tension will only make it worse.

[supersop]

Stop squeezing ... most brass players have this tendency to tense up the left arm entirely when they play .... it's the last thing you want to do.

[Ch1k3n]

Ok thanks for the tips, I've been squeezing because of the horn imbalance. When I practice on a Yamaha bari, which is much more balanced, my left hand is relaxed, but since the King is very bell heavy, I have been squeezing to try to hold the horn level when it wants to tip forward. I find it very difficult to not squeeze unless I stick my pinky in the pinky ring to hold the front end of the horn up, but then my fingers aren't as flexible.

[Ch1k3n]

Ok so after holding the horn again I found that the problem is not in me squeezing it, it's that I'm pushing my thumb down on the 1st valve tuning slide trigger to try to counter the bell heavy-ness of the horn.

[MelloHorn13]

If the horn being heavy is the problem..... get strong lol. You can offset the weight of the bell by raising the angle of the horn slightly. It might help shift the pressure of the weight to a stronger/secure of the left hand. You right... should have no tension at all. In a perfect world you should be able to comfortably play with just three fingers on your right hand. Think of using the thumb and pinky on the left as a little extra support.

Hope this helps.

[Ch1k3n]

If the horn being heavy is the problem..... get strong lol. You can offset the weight of the bell by raising the angle of the horn slightly. It might help shift the pressure of the weight to a stronger/secure of the left hand. You right... should have no tension at all. In a perfect world you should be able to comfortably play with just three fingers on your right hand. Think of using the thumb and pinky on the left as a little extra support.

Hope this helps.

Haha yeah the horn does get heavy but the main pain is the cramp in my hand. I'm sure raising the horn angle slightly will shift the weight but I also take pride in pursuing visual perfection so horn angles are big to me. I'm using it for my HS marching band season to (attempt to ) prepare for drum corps, and we do 10 degrees up. (which to our rank leaders, means about 30 degrees XD) So I'll see how things go there.

[MelloHorn13]

Depending on what your Visual defines as normal hornangle. Large Bell horns usually go slightly higher than small bell horns so that that it doesn't look flat, which gives the "weak" look.

[supersop]

Depending on what your Visual defines as normal hornangle. Large Bell horns usually go slightly higher than small bell horns so that that it doesn't look flat, which gives the "weak" look.

I'm not sure how the Kings are constructed .. but I was always able to support the horn with my left arm only .. and only between the first and second knuckle of the index finger. Is the bracing so different that you can't get your fingers perpendicular to the valves?

BTW .. speaking as a bit of a shoulder and neck expert ... hand cramps and tingling are often caused by a pinched nerve in the brachial plexus(main nerve root system from the neck to the arm ... or a pinch around the AC joint in the shoulder. Make sure you're stretching these areas heavily before any attempts of playing. Check the angle of your elbow ... make sure it's out far enough. This could be causing all of the problems with the other parts of the arm/shoulder/neck

[Ch1k3n]

I'm not sure how the Kings are constructed .. but I was always able to support the horn with my left arm only .. and only between the first and second knuckle of the index finger. Is the bracing so different that you can't get your fingers perpendicular to the valves?

BTW .. speaking as a bit of a shoulder and neck expert ... hand cramps and tingling are often caused by a pinched nerve in the brachial plexus(main nerve root system from the neck to the arm ... or a pinch around the AC joint in the shoulder. Make sure you're stretching these areas heavily before any attempts of playing. Check the angle of your elbow ... make sure it's out far enough. This could be causing all of the problems with the other parts of the arm/shoulder/neck

Ok thanks for the anatomy info.

Actually it's more of a sharp pain, not a tingling.

So having my elbow tucked in can cause problems with my arm/shoulder/neck? That's a good incentive to keep it out where it's supposed to be!

Here's a new rundown of things:

Kings are a bit different from the Yamahas in that they have a little paddle type thing that you use to push out the first valve slide. It's like a see-saw that when you push it in the slide will push out.So while you're holding the horn around the valve section like any old horn, your thumb will rest on this paddle thing. This is comfortable for the first few seconds as it seems that your hand is ergonomically sound. After you start playing and your fingers start depressing the valves, the front of the horn tips down because 1.) Your fingers pressing down on the valves 2.) Your thumb pulling up on the leadpipe to make sure that your fingers depress the valves and not simply push the horn down. This causes your left hand to try to find a way to counter this. The easiest and most effective way is to push down on the base of the paddle thing with your left thumb as there is a little protrusion that is just large enough to rest your thumb on. This fix is ok for the first few minutes, but after that there becomes a very concentrated pressure or cramp in my hand at the base of my left thumb about an inch to the left from the crease in my skin on my palm that runs from in between my thumb and first finger to my wrist and about an inch up from the wrist.

Hope this info helps a little more!

Thanks for all the feedback so far!