emcc Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 OK, a few things. #1, the Bones were DQd in 1976 (Sevierville, TN), and therefore the 2nd such corps. Bayonne was the 3rd, in 1977 (but the luckiest, because at least they got to perform at Finals). #2: Paul, since it's not a big secret or a big deal, can you please just post the Mucs score from '75 Prelims for us? I've been after that info for 28 years now (haven't tried especially hard, but I'd love to know). I'm not asking just to see you prove your contention that the Mucs didn't win, because I believe you. I think that Mad, SCV, and possibly BD were better corps, although the Mucs were as exciting as any corps I've ever seen. I just would like to know their score. #3: Paul, I really like your choice of favorite corps all-time. I love '74 SCV. Ithaca was my first time ever seeing the corps, they blew me away (esp. YPG drum solo), and it's still my favorite show to listen to. I bought the "1974" McCormick tape titled "Competitive Drum Corps" thinking that it would feature '74 SCV, but it's actually about '73 SCV (which ain't too bad, don't get me wrong). I guess it was released in '74. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emcc Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 And btw, I knew a dude who was in both '74 SCV and '75 Mucs. I posted that earlier in this thread, but thought it was worth another entry, since both corps came up here, and he was one lucky (and partially unlucky, I suppose) dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Milano Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I'll see if I can get the actual score. I doubt, however, that the score still is around anywhere. Angelica (who IS dead, though Pesceone would be a bit saddened to hear that HE is dead - he IS NOT), told me that the scores were added up - maybe not by the tabulators, but they were added up. I'm going to call Pesceone tomorrow and just ask him (my wife used to babysit for his kids, and I knew him well enough when I was manager of Spirit). Why dick around with this stuff after all these years. I'll just ask Don if the sheets were ever tabulated, and if he knows if Muchachos won. Maybe he'll tell me, maybe not. Otherwise, I'll stick with what Angelica told me. He told me so many other "secrets" that I was later able to verify, that this one seems reasonable to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emcc Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Thanks. It's worth a try. The statute of limitations on any secrecy vows by the cognoscente should have expired by now, so Don should be able to fess up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scerpella Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 (edited) P.S. Muchachos did NOT win pre-lims. They were more than a point below Madison. In fact they were in third place. Sorry to ruin the myth . . .P.P.S. Still my third favorite show of all time (behind '74 SCV and '74 Anaheim). Thank you Paul. Every time this urban myth gets repeated it obscures the fact that Madison in 75 was THE powerhouse, their only loss coming in DCI midwest prelims. 73-76 Madison was dominating DCI, with a 4th,2 2nds and a 1st. As great and entertaining as Muchachos were, NOBODY was going to take the title from Scouts that year. They were a juggernaut. Scott Stewart repeated the same facts you recounted to me 26 years ago. Edited August 19, 2003 by dans24103 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emcc Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 73-76 Madison was dominating DCI, with a 4th,2 2nds and a 1st. During '73 - '76, SCV went 1-1-2-3, which is better than Madison's 4-2-1-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffsjetta Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 looking at scores leading up to finals, Paul is right...BD even beat them before finals week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCDreamer Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 We need a Warren Commission investigation. Don Warren? :P SCDreamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dc oldtimer Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 IF there was a rivalry between the Muchachos and the Cavaliers, it was certainly a one-sided "hatred." I marched in the Cavaliers in the years preceding Muchachos disqualification, and I was on the Cavies management team the year "we" turned them in for marching overage members (it was an interesting meeting we had looking at the birth certificate, trying to decide what to do . . .)Our corps had NO ill will toward Muchachos. In fact, in 1974 we couldn't watch the Muchachos show often enough. We loved those guys. Totally ballsy show. Great style and swagger. Everything we had been back in the 60's. No jealousy on our parts. Heck, we were just happy to be back in the "dance" that year. Prior to 1974 neither Muchachos or Cavies were particularly competitive in the previous two or three years, we rarely saw them at any shows on the east coast, and I can't recall having any occasion to have spent any time with them. So, no reason to have any "rivalry" from our end. Like a lot of other east coast corps full of Italians and Greeks (hairy ol' basta r d s! :) ) , they certainly looked "old" to us. But in 1973 and 1974 EVERYONE looked old to the Cavaliers. We were a very young corps back then. Nope, we did not disqualify the Muchachos because of any particular rivalry with them. We were aware of a number of corps who were becoming more and more flagrant with their overage members. We had spoken to DCI and were told "bring us proof" or quit whining. It was the idealistic nature of our founder, Don Warren, that drove us to pursue the overage "thing." It wasn't specifically because we wanted to get rid of some corps above us, just so we could move up in the ranks. But that obviously was part of the reason - only in that the blatant disregard for the overage rules was making it unreasonably hard for corps who were abiding by the rules. It IS a competive activity, afterall. Mainly, however, our Founder, Don Warren, is about as straight an arrow as you'll ever find (I know, I know, sounds funny calling anyone associated with the Cavies "straight" - just thought I'd say it before all the smart ###es did ^0^ ). Muchachos simply "happened" to be the first corps we got definitive proof on. If it had been Kilts, Des Plaines, 27th Lancers, Anaheim, whomever, we would have done the same thing. It had NOTHING to do with Muchachos, and really NOTHING to do with the fact that they were a top three corps in '75, and a possible champion contender. We had a guy in our corps who had marched with an east coast corps the year before, and he personally knew that a member of Muchachos (the rototom player) was well overage. He was also "fairly certain" that there were several other overage members in Muchachos. Thus, they became our object of investigation. We did our homework, secured the proof on the rototom player and nailed 'em. Simple as that. It had NOTHING to do with the Troopers. It almost had something to do with the Blue Stars, who we also were told had an overage member. We investigated them first and thought we had "proof." It turned out to be untrue. So, had we been right about that one, they would have been the first one's to get disqualified, not Muchachos. Again, it was nothing "personal" against the Muchachos. I can tell you that we agonized about the whole thing in our staff meetings. We knew that many innocent kids in the Muchachos were about to go through h e ll, for no fault of their own. We were concerned, however, about the number of apparently overage members in the Muchachos. We felt very comfortable we were NOT dealing with one "accidental" case, or one "sneaky" member. This was, in our minds, clear disregard on the part of their management. Whether that is true or not, you'd have to ask the adults responsible for what was going on with the Muchachos back then. If they were ignoring things on purpose - THEY caused all the subsequent pain, NOT the Cavaliers. I'll go to my grave, having spoken personally to former Muchachos (whose names I won't divulge, as much as that is gonna' p is s some of you off!) knowing there were at least a dozen or more overage members in that 1975 corps. We did the right thing . . . P.S. Muchachos did NOT win pre-lims. They were more than a point below Madison. In fact they were in third place. Sorry to ruin the myth . . . P.P.S. Still my third favorite show of all time (behind '74 SCV and '74 Anaheim). Paul, As usual, you are a great reporter of the facts as they are. As I was reading through your post it triggered the many memories in the back of my old brain of this story. You are right, I don't remember anyone in the Cavaliers having a "hate" for the Muchachos back then. I am thinking the dislike is one sided but AFTER the incident, not before. I would like to hear from someone who marched back then to get his/her side of the story. But I do remember someone in the Cavaliers knowing someone marching in the Muchacho’s well past his 22nd birth date. Not too long ago while moving I came across my Cavalier Cadet yearbook of 1974. In my profile, I listed the Muchachos as my favorite corp. (This was before my blood turned green) I remember hearing a recording on the 73 and 74 Muchachos. I WAS BLOWN AWAY!!!!! It is still burned into my brain to this day. After hearing about all this in 75, I remember being VERY disappointed but after being booed & pummeled by debris from the upper decks of Franklin Field, it turned into something other then respect. “Hatred” is probably too strong of a word but lets just say that I didn’t loose any sleep after hearing that they folded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiBoyinLA Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 (edited) Angelica (who IS dead, though Pesceone would be a bit saddened to hear that HE is dead - he IS NOT), What?! I swore that I heard he was in that car crash with Bob Barker! Doh! :sshh: I'm going to call Pesceone tomorrow and just ask him (my wife used to babysit for his kids, and I knew him well enough when I was manager of Spirit). Why dick around with this stuff after all these years. I'll just ask Don if the sheets were ever tabulated, and if he knows if Muchachos won. Great idea. -- Red-faced Rob Edited August 19, 2003 by ChiBoyinLA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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