DCI corps Regressing?

[ScribeToo]

As a naturalized Chicagoan, are you happy that the White Sox have made progress and won the WS while the Cubs have not made progress? :P

:) Heh.

I'm a Cubs fan.. and more than that... a baseball fan.. so as a naturalized Chicagoan.. HECK YES I'm happy for the Sox! I am not now and never can see myself becoming a Sox fan.. but I did watch most of this WS and it was some good baseball.. typical Sox Style grinder ball and that made it fun.. and maybe next year my Cubs will stop spinning their wheels.. :P

Now back to your regularly scheduled topic.. already in progress..

Stef

[DaKman]

FYI, fans loved the early season, and blasted them late season for selling out for a score that never came

are you talking about 92 SCV? if so, that is very interesting....btw, the line was under the direction of Scott Johnson, who has been at the DEV's since 94 (major improvement over the 3 previous years)

[soldier81]

what a stupid, ignorant remark...im a current staff member making some of these new leaps forward, son. The fact of the matter is, that the entire activity does march/play better than say 1985...what it 9th place now, probably could have won in the year mentioned. however, with the newer push for more visual packages...a lot of what is played is a bit water downed...some execution problems are overlooked because of "exposure to error"...filed judges are forced to put seat belts on, take vitamins, jog every morning just to keep up with present day "status quo". But there is no excuse for fielding a show that simply is made to grab points, regardless of audience appeal and artistic experiment. Im all for pushing the envelope, but many of my colleague/other staff have been submersed for so long, they have lost a bit of edge in the form of creativity. WGI/indoor guard and percussion seems to be a high source for new creative ideas on the field...some work, some dont...but at least it helps push the activity. Blue Devils having a spoken part into a microphone, i do not consider creative use of amping...it was lame at best.

The retro idea is taking totally literal...(perhaps you didnt comprehend the concept) no reference was made to connect creative implementation. A good reference was 1992 SCV, earlier in the season (later changed) the percussion solo was done on old sparkley 12X15 drums and old timp toms...sort of like the original Fiddler show of the 70's...very interesting, but didnt really catch on....that was creative and risky and definitely deserved A for effort. Some corps that have used the "old school" park and play have received high GE marks and crowd appreciation....wondering how Madison will incorporate the Fleur de lis is creative as it is retro....come on now, open your mind.

Look Dad,

First of all a 9th place corps today can be alot more selective towards membership due to the lack of competition from other Corps in their area, and as a result you can write a harder book with a 9th place Corps...Is this good for DCI, I dont think so. Back in the 70's and 80's you could actually play your way up to DIV1(Open Class), whereas now you have to go out and hire someone to teach you how to trumpet(insert musical instument here). Also, you have to send your Color Guard hopefull to dance class. So what you have now is not the instructional medium that it used to be it is more of and endstate to get your precious visual packages.

Second by retro I meant going out wth G bugles, having a color guard that focussed on carriage and not dance, and would never think of Amps in the pit. My retro corps would also take a chance on people with less musicianship but with a proper attitude. This may not be a winning recipe but it will inspire loyaty to the Corps and would ensure that membership stayed constant.

Finally Dad, people should look to DCI for creative ideas. We would never have dreamed to go to any winter activity for anything other than recruitment. At one time Drum Corps was an extension of the veterans in town who used their musical ability to inspire kids to get off the streets and participate. This form of emulation made Drum Corps a strong and vibrant activity regardless of size or musical ability. Todays drum corps is a place where egos by the hierarchy have created an unatainable situation for most kids off the street. I would definatley call that regression!

[DaKman]

Look Dad,

First of all a 9th place corps today can be alot more selective towards membership due to the lack of competition from other Corps in their area, and as a result you can write a harder book with a 9th place Corps...Is this good for DCI, I dont think so. Back in the 70's and 80's you could actually play your way up to DIV1(Open Class), whereas now you have to go out and hire someone to teach you how to trumpet(insert musical instument here). Also, you have to send your Color Guard hopefull to dance class. So what you have now is not the instructional medium that it used to be it is more of and endstate to get your precious visual packages.

Second by retro I meant going out wth G bugles, having a color guard that focussed on carriage and not dance, and would never think of Amps in the pit. My retro corps would also take a chance on people with less musicianship but with a proper attitude. This may not be a winning recipe but it will inspire loyaty to the Corps and would ensure that membership stayed constant.

Finally Dad, people should look to DCI for creative ideas. We would never have dreamed to go to any winter activity for anything other than recruitment. At one time Drum Corps was an extension of the veterans in town who used their musical ability to inspire kids to get off the streets and participate. This form of emulation made Drum Corps a strong and vibrant activity regardless of size or musical ability. Todays drum corps is a place where egos by the hierarchy have created an unatainable situation for most kids off the street. I would definatley call that regression!

do some research there spiffy....many corps are still starting for kids on the street...but hey, if those kids are getting a decent education and progressing...call in the artillery for god's sake.

if you hate this activity so much, why do you even bother?

with this guy's logic, we would still have the tenor drum and ^12X18 bass drum sliding up and downt he 50 yard line....i guess PC's are far less effective than the spiral notebook....lmao

if you dont change (progress) with the times, then you get left behind...here endeth the lesson.

[Matt_S]

Come on, Matt. I'm talking in generalizations here, not speaking to individual corps.

I know, but that's what I have a problem with. You're making sweeping generalizations about the activity, based upon your own personal value judgments.

Maybe it's just another generation gap coming through, but I don't think it's any secret that the mass appeal of corps in the 70s and 80s was much greater than it has been throughout the 90s and 00s. I'm sure that all corps' staffs try to achieve a balance between their push for success and their desire to entertain, but all too often crowds now days are entertained by the overwhelming degree of technical prowess that corps display instead of being entertained by a show that they can relate to on an emotional level (although there are some corps that do seem to understand the latter concept and are attempting to keep that delicate balance from leaning too hard on the side of demand/technique...ala Crown).

I can't speak to the 70's and 80's, as I wasn't a drum corps fan. Similarly, and this is where too many trip up, I can't speak for any fan other than myself. Certainly I can't speak for the "masses" and judge what the mass appeal of drum corps is. I wonder what it is that you base this judgment on? If we're talking attendance, then you can make a case for the 00's, because overall attendance has never been higher. If we're talking crowd response, it might have been more raucous in the 70's, but show styles have changed to a more musical, symphonic approach, and you wouldn't stand and holler at a symphony, even if you thought it was the greatest thing ever. So what do you base your judgment on, when you say that the "mass appeal" was greater back in the day? It's no secret which era's shows you prefer; nothing wrong with that, but hopefully you'll forgive me if I think you're allowing your own preferences to color your opinion of what everyone else in the stands enjoys.

Regarding the technical vs. emotional aspects, I must point out that emotional effect is a personal thing. I've choked up when I listen to Scouts '95, but I've also choked up in the middle of the closer of Cavaliers '02. Yet I have to hear people tell me that there's no emotion in the latter. I have to hear people telling me what I should (or should not) be feeling when I listen to a show. That's absurd. I'm a fan of drum corps today because I'm amazed at what they accomplish, that's true. But I'm also a fan, because no music can make me as excited, make me as inspired, make me as confident, or make me as happy as a good drum corps chart. And yes, I listen almost exclusively to shows from the last ten years, and largely from the past six. I wouldn't be a fan if I didn't find emotional appeal in those shows.

I'm not saying that corps today aren't entertaining, but what is considered "entertaining" today is just not what it used to be. I know, I know...save me the speach about yesteryear's shows being boring by today's standards, but sorry...I'll take a 1978 or 1980 finals lineup anyday over most any year since 1990. Like I said...I'm sure it's just another generation gap rearing its ugly head. I won't condemn todays corps nor their designers as they are doing a great job, but I would sure love to see a shift in design so that the music comes first, the audience is the target, and everything else comes a distant second.

I can agree, and I can respect that. We have different tastes and that's not surprising. However, instead of recognizing this as a generational thing, or recognizing it as a difference in taste, you chose to bemoan the status quo. If you had done the former, I could nod my head, because indeed we are arguing the same thing: that tastes differ between individuals. But when you disparage the state of the activity today, you can bet that I'm going to stand up for it.

[drumlinetchr]

Please keep it civil before the topic is closed, it's a good discussion.

How can drum corps remain progressing and still remain drum corps? retro show would be cool, music that people know like the 007 show, I thought it was great (although not retro) but I didn't need a narrator telling me what was going on.

Earlier shows were easy to understand and fun to watch. I'm not saying that the shows today are not entertaining, but I don't know most of the music and have to watch the show a few times to understand what is happening on the field.

As far as the kids on the street comment, I doubt that you could take a kid off the street and teach him/her to play in today’s div I corps. They great musicians. Maybe div III corps will take an inexperienced person that is willing to work.

[soldier81]

do some research there spiffy....many corps are still starting for kids on the street...but hey, if those kids are getting a decent education and progressing...call in the artillery for god's sake.

if you hate this activity so much, why do you even bother?

with this guy's logic, we would still have the tenor drum and ^12X18 bass drum sliding up and downt he 50 yard line....i guess PC's are far less effective than the spiral notebook....lmao

if you dont change (progress) with the times, then you get left behind...here endeth the lesson.

Can those kids in that Corps make it to DIV1 in the life cycle of a member? I dont think so. I dont hate this activity I hate what has become of it. You can say you are progressing with the times, but by throwing away the traditions of the past you lose a valuable sence of what drum corps is supposed to be. Plus you alienate alot of drum corps alumni, losing a large source of revenue and manpower. Hey, drive on changing the essence of drum corps if you think its progress. To me drum corps is about representing your city or area, and with that pride looking to improve YOUR CORPS. All of these perenial Top twelve Corps started off in that fashion. Now the younger corps are used primarily as stepping stones just look at the sponsorship forum on this board. Next year take a hard look at the amount of shoes left on the field after the DIV2/3 retreat and ask yourselves is this progress?

[DaKman]

ok, lets take it down a notch

in the 70's it was the marching bands that pushed the activity

in the 80's Drum corps ruled

in the 90's until now we see how winter programs are pushing the activity

yes, i have taught top 12 corps and i have taught beginner programs...and as an educator, i will tell you there is no more thrill than teaching someone who has more area to progress...watching them grow, seeing their confidence progress, etc. in the top 12 we get performers who already know the basics and a lot of the cream...there is very little education...its more like coaching an nfl team or playing a game of chess...with that said, i think, if i understand you correctly, we totally agree.

if you read my post carefully, you will also understand that I do miss the GE/audience appeal shows that first got me involved...is there a connection between the dimishing DCI audience/interest and the direction of the actitivy? perhaps

look at 85 or 88 suncoast sound...they were pushing the envelope with all the traditional values of drum corps included; integrated into a innovative, fresh concept...brilliant!

[DrumCorpsFan27]

Come on, Matt. I'm talking in generalizations here, not speaking to individual corps. Maybe it's just another generation gap coming through, but I don't think it's any secret that the mass appeal of corps in the 70s and 80s was much greater than it has been throughout the 90s and 00s. I'm sure that all corps' staffs try to achieve a balance between their push for success and their desire to entertain, but all too often crowds now days are entertained by the overwhelming degree of technical prowess that corps display instead of being entertained by a show that they can relate to on an emotional level (although there are some corps that do seem to understand the latter concept and are attempting to keep that delicate balance from leaning too hard on the side of demand/technique...ala Crown).

I'm not saying that corps today aren't entertaining, but what is considered "entertaining" today is just not what it used to be. I know, I know...save me the speach about yesteryear's shows being boring by today's standards, but sorry...I'll take a 1978 or 1980 finals lineup anyday over most any year since 1990. Like I said...I'm sure it's just another generation gap rearing its ugly head. I won't condemn todays corps nor their designers as they are doing a great job, but I would sure love to see a shift in design so that the music comes first, the audience is the target, and everything else comes a distant second.

I would much rather be blown away from an emotional standpoint rather than a technical one, any day of the week.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

I wonder what it is that you base this judgment on? If we're talking attendance, then you can make a case for the 00's, because overall attendance has never been higher.

Better check again. Attendance was much higher in the '80s, it's not even close.