Nebuchanezzar Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 BD 2004??? I guess thats why thier hornline got a 20 in semi's... not to mention that both groups have totally differant concepts of sound! The scoring aside (a perfect score in a performance caption, especially one as subjective as brass performance, usually means the judge boxed themselves in, as Steve Calhoun did that night - I will maintain that BDs hornline in 04 was never (nor was anyone else's) deserving of a perfect score - plus I have always questioned Steve's paradigm when judging that caption - he is often not true to the placemat – as are many judges) the concepts of sound being different are fine, but consistency of that concept is my drum to beat on: BDs quality changed at moments of great dynamic and musical demand, the Cavaliers did not - the last or lowest not of any melodic line BD presented did not maintain the same quality of sound that preceded it or followed it. Clarity and consistency of articulation? Well, let's not go there (especially with the 04 Cavies hornline as a comparison - 03 I might be able to see some grey, but not 04) I'm also gonna disagree with you on this one. IMHO Most of the top corps for the past few years have lacked great balance... Cavies, BD, Even the Cadets at times!!! I think you and I have different concepts of what "balance" is.... The high brass lines of both The Cavies and The Cadets have had a tendancy to sound very "tinny metallic” sound (yet it is the most dominant sound in the ensemble) and somewhat thin in recent years... While I will not disagree with you about the quality of sound in the Cadets hornline (in that they do not approach their instruments as if they are concert instruments, but instead like bugles in Bb - which is incorrect) I would disagree with you about a “tinny metallic” sound in the Cavaliers upper brass – trumpet, by its construction, in a characteristically bright sound – any lead jazz player, any orchestral performer, any solo performer is going to possess a bright sound simply by virtue of their playing instrument correctly. The mellophone – due to its distinction as the most bastardized instrument in the choir – is always going to require more refinement to achieve a French horn sound (though I think the Cavies introduction of those new mouthpieces made great strides towards that goal) – as far as the middle voices consistently dominating and the other acting as the icing – well, if the music calls for that and the Cavaliers don’t achieve it, I will be the first to criticize, but to rely on the pyramid of sound (which, to me, is a situational tool, not a panacea) is outmoded and incorrect. All voices should be matched equally first, then situational listening assignments should be explored (match your sound to the trumpets here, mellos have the melody – balance to them, etc…) – it will produce a brighter ensemble sound, simply by virtue of the trumpet (and sometimes baritone, depending on the range) sounds having the proper vibrancy and characteristic sound in all registers. To say that their sound is “thin” is a misnomer – transparent, clear, vibrant, colorful definitely, but not “thin”. The numbers don't lie... they may be a little misconstrued... but they don't lie! I'm pretty sure BD would not have all of those Ott's if they weren't good for something... ^0^ The Blue Devils are consummate performers – noone can ever fault them for that – they perform the show they have with everything they have – and previous to 2001/2002 they arguably had the most consistent hornline in DCI (with Cadets challenging often, and Star seriously challenging for the time they were in the activity) – but the Cavaliers, to me, have taken that title away from them since then. I realize I am speaking almost Platonically about quality of sound, balance, et al… as if there is an ideal and groups achieve higher as they approach that ideal, but that is the game of music. The ideal is the best in professional-level playing (be it jazz, orchestral, what have you) – shouldn’t that be everyone’s goal in their end-product? Shouldn’t we educate the members of these groups in the processes by which players at that level achieve what they achieve? Maybe not play as fast/high/loud/technical as the professionals do, but sound as close as possible? Why should we expect teenagers and college students to understand balance, color, timbre, all the aspects of playing at the highest level - without the proper education? That's what drum corps is - an educational medium that has an end-product that entertains. That’s my paradigm. BD has won a lot of Jim Ott awards, but I think the field has changed. As the Cavaliers continue in their line of thought, and the judges are more educated to the goals, processes, and earmarks of their approach, I have a feeling that the balance will shift. My reply to the topic at hand: Blue Devils 1998 (first minute) Cadets 1995 Star 1990-1993 I know that the discussion is of this decade, but the above are all too good not to mention. Cavaliers 2000-2005 Vanguard 1999, 2002, 2003 A side note: I find it interesting that you mention Star – Jim Prime actually told the Cavaliers brass staff that he loved what they were doing and that it was the extension and evolution of everything they had achieved and were working for at Star when he was there. This was in 2003, too… truth is stranger than fiction. Neb B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedawn Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 cadets 2001 blue devils 2003 crown 2005 was hot too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upperleadlove Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 The scoring aside (a perfect score in a performance caption, especially one as subjective as brass performance, usually means the judge boxed themselves in, as Steve Calhoun did that night - I will maintain that BDs hornline in 04 was never (nor was anyone else's) deserving of a perfect score - plus I have always questioned Steve's paradigm when judging that caption - he is often not true to the placemat – as are many judges) :wub: I could not agree with you any more on that!!! I think you and I have different concepts of what "balance" is.... This is quite possible... but as long as we can agree to disagree, I don't see the harm in it! While I will not disagree with you about the quality of sound in the Cadets hornline (in that they do not approach their instruments as if they are concert instruments, but instead like bugles in Bb - which is incorrect) I think this may be a Gino thing... I noticed it alot with Vanguard 2004 as well. To me it just seems to be the high brass that sounds kind of harsh though. I really enjoy some of the low brass sounds. I realize I am speaking almost Platonically about quality of sound, balance, et al… as if there is an ideal and groups achieve higher as they approach that ideal, but that is the game of music. We may agree on more than you think we do, after all... A side note: I find it interesting that you mention Star – Jim Prime actually told the Cavaliers brass staff that he loved what they were doing and that it was the extension and evolution of everything they had achieved and were working for at Star when he was there. This was in 2003, too… truth is stranger than fiction. That truely is interesting... I would trust Jimmer's opinion over most others. Personally, I just don't see the resemblance. Maybe the Cavaliers will do something to change my mind this year. As far as Star and thier concept of sound is concerned... I expect great things from Crown's hornline this year! ^0^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liebot Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 I think this may be a Gino thing... I noticed it alot with Vanguard 2004 as well. To me it just seems to be the high brass that sounds kind of harsh though. I really enjoy some of the low brass sounds. and cadets 00, when gino was caption head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medeabrass Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 As far as Star and thier concept of sound is concerned... I expect great things from Crown's hornline this year! ^0^ Blue Stars too! I'm curious to see how much of a difference there will be in year 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelloHorn13 Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 Cavies 00 01 02 03 04 05 Cadets 02 05 Phantom 03 05 BD 02 04 Bluecoats 02 04 Madison 00 03 05 Glassmen 02 04 BK 04 Boston 00 02 SCV 00 04 What I thought were good hornlines, hated some of those shows, but loved the hornline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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