Music versus Visual

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I think you're absolutely right. Even though music is more crucial to the design of a show than visual, it seems like visual plays a bigger part in adjudication.

No, the overall show is crucial. The individual elements play their parts to fit whatever that overal concept is.

This is a real chicken/egg argument right here, isn't it. Should drill be written to complement music, or should music be written to complement drill?

Both. Whatever the concept of the show demands. The idea that music should always be first is nonsense. Visual is finally getting to the point where it is close to eqaul. People complain because it's not what they're uised to. It's not how things were 20 years ago. But like I said in another thread, the bar has been set at full-package-shows. It's not good enough to just play some good music and march around. And too many corps do that. Cavaliers have taken the next step where during every momembt of the show, whatever the focus is, every other apsect of the show is actually complementing it. When they play music, the drill actually fits the music. And yes, when they do some drill, the music fits that.

I see nothing wrong with visual and musical designers working together to come up with a better show. Shows are no longer only about 1 aspect, music. I'm glad that there is starting to be a real emphasis on intergration and eqaul aspects.

[bluemarlin82]

it may be easier for a regular fan to pick out mistakes in visual than in music, but not to the judges. the judges are qualified enough to find the errors in both equally. that being said, if visual is being considered in scoring over music, how is BD in second place? they stand still for about half of their show.

i agree with the earlier post that the cavalier's drill and music go hand in hand. you cant listen to the show without watching it, and you cant watch it without listening to it. i dont think any other corps in D1 can say the same. simply put, the cavaliers have ONE show, consisting of drill and music. other corps have 2 mini shows within the show, a visual show, and a music show.

i also think this thread is a cavalier-bashing thread in disguise. but what do i know? i predicted notre dame to be national champs in 06-07.

[bluemarlin82]

Well then that must be a Montana speedlimit cause those #### green ones are FAST!

Seriously though, great topic. My reaction is of course visual is far over-emphasized, and has been for a long time now. Visual performance is extremely important. Motion is one of the pillars of our activity, but the current productions are designed around the visual elements to such an extreme that the melodic aspects of the music are being compromised. Arrangers are cutting and pasting snippets and licks around visual moves and segments to maximize scoring potential. I am not saying they are bad arrangers, just playing the game as it is defined.

The quality of playing as a whole has never been higer when you look top to bottom. But the quality of music selection and design has become schizophrenic. I know this is another topic compared to the 'weighting' of musical performance, but very related.

whats up with the lenin avatar? are you a communist?

[The Tsar]

it may be easier for a regular fan to pick out mistakes in visual than in music, but not to the judges. the judges are qualified enough to find the errors in both equally. that being said, if visual is being considered in scoring over music, how is BD in second place? they stand still for about half of their show.

i agree with the earlier post that the cavalier's drill and music go hand in hand. you cant listen to the show without watching it, and you cant watch it without listening to it. i dont think any other corps in D1 can say the same. simply put, the cavaliers have ONE show, consisting of drill and music. other corps have 2 mini shows within the show, a visual show, and a music show.

i also think this thread is a cavalier-bashing thread in disguise. but what do i know? i predicted notre dame to be national champs in 06-07.

That alone should get you the firing squad. Notre Dame bites. :P

As for your points...I think it is indeed true, it is easier to pick out mistakes for fans....judges should be able to see the subtle mistakes as well as the overt ones.

BD doesn't really stand still for half the show.

Yes, Cavaliers have the best integration of music and drill for the past few years.

I disagree with you that other corps have two mini shows.

I disagree that this is a Cavalier-bashing thread in disguise, since I'm the one who started it, and I didn't have that intention.

P.S.

FSU, 2006 National Champs. :P

[Chris Scott]

(Please forgive the snip)

I am not saying they are bad arrangers, just playing the game as it is defined.

Bullseye!

[Loud-is-good]

That alone should get you the firing squad. Notre Dame bites. :P

As for your points...I think it is indeed true, it is easier to pick out mistakes for fans....judges should be able to see the subtle mistakes as well as the overt ones.

BD doesn't really stand still for half the show.

Yes, Cavaliers have the best integration of music and drill for the past few years.

I disagree with you that other corps have two mini shows.

I disagree that this is a Cavalier-bashing thread in disguise, since I'm the one who started it, and I didn't have that intention.

P.S.

FSU, 2006 National Champs. :P

As a recent FSU grad now attending grad school at Notre Dame, I win either way wahahahaha

[bluemarlin82]

That alone should get you the firing squad. Notre Dame bites. :P

As for your points...I think it is indeed true, it is easier to pick out mistakes for fans....judges should be able to see the subtle mistakes as well as the overt ones.

BD doesn't really stand still for half the show.

Yes, Cavaliers have the best integration of music and drill for the past few years.

I disagree with you that other corps have two mini shows.

I disagree that this is a Cavalier-bashing thread in disguise, since I'm the one who started it, and I didn't have that intention.

P.S.

FSU, 2006 National Champs. :P

well, a notre dame fan i am NOT. i just tried to be realistic. but FSU! i wouldnt go to vegas with that bet.... B)

BD doesnt literally stand still for half of their show. but they do stand still a lot, just like in past years. look back through your 2000's BD shows, and you'll see a lot of dead moments where nothing is going on. their drill isnt exactly the hardest, with the contras hanging out with the drums in the back for most of the show. that being said, they are p*ss clean, and consistantly placing 2nd and 1st....maybe proving that music has more weight than visual. (although i think it IS in fact equal)

[StupidLikeAFox]

I don't really think that visual is over valued… I agree that the Cavaliers have the most well integrated drill/music package. I just don't think the music could hold up well without watching the drill, critically.

As for football... Washington Huskies national champs...2007 2017 B)

[bluemarlin82]

I just don't think the music could hold up well without watching the drill, critically.

thats the point!!

As for football... Washington Huskies national champs...2007 2017 B)

huskies might be national champs if they move down to II-A. :P B)

[12L]

Do you think that maybe Visual gets so much more weight in our minds/the judging community because it is so much easier to understand than Music?

I mean...we see something wrong with Visual, we know it right away: crooked line, bad interval, person out of step, circle that isn't a circle, squar that isn't a square, flag drop, rifle drop, flag out of phase....etc.

In Music, there are some obvious mistakes like wrong notes and persons sticking out of the ensemble...but intonation is hard for a lot of people. I've taught music before, as I am sure many on here have, and I was always amazed at how poorly some of my students could perceive intonation. Some of them just couldn't hear it. Same goes for balance and blend...some people truly have trouble with those concepts.

I think this may be in part why we tend to see shows that are primarily clean visually as so much superior to the rest of the field, even though we are supposed to be 50-50 with music and visual, aren't we? But are we really? If you look at the scores and captions, yes. But if I recall correctly, there is some wording on the music sheets about visual demand...is there wording on the visual sheets about musical demand?

I don't know...I'm just talking out loud here and thinking, because I see a lot of people who say that the Cavaliers are just THAT MUCH SUPERIOR to Devils and Regiment...but I just don't see it. I see their Visual as being heads and shoulders above everyone else, that is all....but for some, that visual aspect is everything, trumping even Music. I see the Music package of Devils and Regiment as being heads and shoulders over the Cavaliers. So we have 50-50. And I think that the scores are reflecting that. But I don't think a lot of fans want to see that.

I consider myself and old fart who always liked the emphasis on music in the old days. That was when you looked forward to buying the CDs rather than the videos because you just loved the music. Now days everyone seems to look forward to the DVDs.

Anyway, my point is (I think I may actually have a point) that I've noticed fans today put much more emphasis on drill than we did in the past and much of music in DCI today reflects this. As talented as many corps are, many times I feel no emotional connection from a musical standpoint.

I never really thought too much about drill personally until Star 90--they blew me away. But I loved them because they combined great music (meaning they actually carried out their melodies) and they had a killer drill. Just doesn't get much better than that.

But speaking of today, many corps play the score sheets. They give us the product that has potential to win. But, Phantom seems to be the corps that wants to entertain. Can't blame a corps like Devs for wanting to win...they are a winning machine. But, it's been a long time since I've been crazy about a Devs show. Personally, I hope Phantom keeps playing to the audience. Who cares where they place.