Just wondering...

[BaritoneBamBam]

Thank you for clarifying the whole "Non integration" issue by directly using th eshow. Should shut some people up!

No problem. Most of the comments of "worst blah blah ever" is because of misinterpretation or the idea that the creative team did not even attempt to do something as obvious or fluent as some other show that someone liked.

Liking or not liking something shouldn't correlate with the best or worst all the time. I certainly didn't like the colors involved in this show, but does it bring out the effect of clarity to confusion? Yes, therefore, I loved the effect that the clashes brought out.

Things ya gotta know: Something you see in a drum corps does not have a creative team of a children's story book. It's usually done on purpose.

[GMichael1230]

Does the "it was meant to be that way" response to the lack of guard integration seem like a cop out to anyone else?

Absolutely, an eyesore. Cumbersome and hardly flowing. Inovation and experimentation is fine, but the best designers doing it while directing the viewers eye and leading the line of sight. THe transitions, setups, and patterns were akward, supposed to be that way or not.

~G~

[GMichael1230]

Please tell me where it says the guard has to be intergrated. I dont think they need to prove anything.. They are consistently great year in year out

What ?? LOL. Horns have to play, drumerrs have to drum, marchers have to march, drill should be somewhat pleasing to the eye and have some sense. Experimental or not, just because a designer "touts" his creation as deliberate, it doesnt mean its awesome, it works/fits, or its cutting edge. The drill was poorly written from a design standpoint regardless of the intended effect. What does it prove ?? Much easier to create disjointed patterns and make them "look" like they are supposed to be that way, then to try and deliberately integrate for same effect.

I dont buy it.

~G~

[rut-roh]

No problem. Most of the comments of "worst blah blah ever" is because of misinterpretation or the idea that the creative team did not even attempt to do something as obvious or fluent as some other show that someone liked.

Liking or not liking something shouldn't correlate with the best or worst all the time.

Speaking for myself, I thought I made it pretty clear that I knew they were specifically going for much less integration. I was very aware that it was done with a purpose in mind, even without your neat little play by play diagrams. That doesn't mean, however, that I have to like it. Or worship it. Or think it was effective.

Without drifting too far off-topic here, I just think it's kind of funny that I can say something like "worst color guard integration ever for a championship show," and then have people imply that I have to clarify that by saying "IN MY OPINION." I had hoped that sort of qualifier would be implied already but I guess it is not. They won a freaking championship doing what they did. It worked. Obviously what they were doing was well performed, and their intent got across to the judging community somehow....and GOOD FOR THEM!!! But sorry, it doesn't work for me, never has, and as such, I considered it the worst color guard integration of any championship show I've ever seen. I'm not claiming that as a fact for anyone but myself, and I feel I am entitled to feel that way.

And lest anyone feel it's just some kind of hatred towards their attempts to take drum corps in a new direction, I assure you it is not. There were so many things about this show I really liked. The concept was great. The performance quality was outstanding throughout. The ballad was unbelievable...interesting that the color guard was most integrated during that part of the show! I thought the drumspeak was a hoot, and man that drum solo was off the charts! I could have used another drill move or two at the end of the show, but other than that...and the color guard being so poorly integrated during the first half of the show...I thought it was very well done.

To clarify my complaints about the matter further, does the color guard need to be integrated throughout the entire show? Of course not. Why does it bother me so much that they didn't integrate more in the first half of the show specifically?? Because as an audience member, it creates multiple focus problems and I don't believe a championship show should do that. At least not to the degree they did. Even when a show has more than one thing going on at once, which is often I admit, there is usually a heirarchy to the focus. This show didn't do that for me. Do I watch the kick### guard feature on side one or the kick### hornline drillmove on side two?? You've got two, sometimes three, sometimes more "featured elements" going on at once, and instead of having my eye be led to where I can catch them all (or at least most of them because of their intregration)...something the Cadets have been downright MASTERFUL at over the years...I just have to pick one because the lack of integration doesn't even allow me to do otherwise. I've been around this activity for over 20 years, and whether it was intended to be that way or not, I don't like when a show does that, whether it's a poorly constructed 17th place show or the world champion. Sorry. It's beyond frustrating as an audience member. I don't personally think they would have betrayed anything about the concept of their show by integrating the guard more.

The other reason this whole thing irked me has to do with a couple of other comments made in this thread.....

Rmurrey74:

The composition box on the Ensemble Visual Sheet

"Unity"

"Integration/Cohesion"

I've never been to a DCI critique for ensemble visual where the guard integration was not part of the conversation.

That pretty much sums it up for me when I take off my audience member hat and put on my instructor hat as well. I've been to countless DCI critiques over the years where the topic of color guard integration ruled the day. When you've listened to judges tell you that DEPSITE YOUR INTENT you need to integrate the color guard more, and you see your numbers lag behind and they say that is the reason why, you tend to get a bit confused when you see a corps win a championship doing that very thing. (It doesn't help when the previous several championship shows all had arguably the best visual integration over their competitors going back to probably the very late 80's and early 90's IMO.) And hey, don't get me wrong, I thought that from a performance standpoint, they were the best corps on the field that night. In all captions. But the instructor in me has some problems with the integration issue because it is incongruous with everything I've experienced in the last 20+ years. So is there some bitterness in there? Yeah I guess there is, though 2005 was the first year in many when I wasn't working directly with any Div 1 corps during the summer, so it's not like my stake in this was personal because I was working with a corps who was competing with them. Also, to be fair, I'd feel just as irked if their uniforms were blue, white, red, or green.

What further disturbs me is that I've since had discussions with DCI judges about this very topic. Talk about enlightening. I bring up the subject of color guard integration and they go on and on about how crucial it is. We discuss all the things I've been taught to value in this activity, we discuss all the points I've heard over and over again in critiques through the years. Then I bring up the 2005 Cadets and it's a lot of hemming and hawing and well, that's different. Some of them don't even have a decent answer for it, or can justify why that example is worthy of the top of box 5 when so many others aren't...so yeah, it tends to bother me a tad. Really, I'm the last person in the world who likes to get all wrapped up in lame theories about politics and crap, but sometimes I can't help but wonder...if the Boston Crusaders or the Colts fielded this show, would the judges have rewarded them for some sort of 'avant garde' approach to color guard integration?? I'm not saying any of those corps would have won with the talent they had that particular year, I'm speaking specifically about the captions dealing with this issue. Would they have been rewarded? My gut tells me NO. My gut tells me they would have been slammed early and mid season until they changed their show to integrate the color guard more. I know it's a lotta woulda coulda shoulda, but that's what my experience in the activity leads me to believe.

[BaritoneBamBam]

The drill was poorly written from a design standpoint regardless of the intended effect.

Contradiction

Edited December 16, 2006 by BaritoneBamBam

[GMichael1230]

In regard to integration,

It is quite obvious from 95% (approximation) of their shows that they have integrated and done so VERY successfully. Now, where does it say that integration means glueing the guard to the rest of the corps?

Definition of integration, thanks to dictionary.com: "an act or instance of combining into an integral whole." Now, the whole being the show, the guard's drill work of various things (waves in Liquid, etc etc) along with the rest of the corps' drill and shapes (mirror effect at beginning of ballad) combined together to create a whole package. This way, ESPECIALLY during Liquid, various shapes and Liquid-y forms could be created at the same time and interweave with each other elegantly and with taste. Of course, IMO.

Unfortunatley, there was a somewhat lack of cohesion, somewhat lack of variety(regarding transition into set-up), somewhat lack of difficulty in regard to transition, ony a few demanding, whole unified ideas. I get the idea, I get the concept, to me though, the drill was used in a manner where the idea seemed too vague, too much time to materialze, and lacked some major basics of a well designed drum corps show.

~G~

Edited December 16, 2006 by GMichael1230

[GMichael1230]

Contradiction

Hardly !

~G~

[GMichael1230]

Thank you for clarifying the whole "Non integration" issue by directly using th eshow. Should shut some people up!

Nobody, on any side of a discussion should try to shut anybody up, ony you "defendeth to thee end" types need your discussions your way or no way. Shame on you.

~G~

[GMichael1230]

No problem. Most of the comments of "worst blah blah ever" is because of misinterpretation or the idea that the creative team did not even attempt to do something as obvious or fluent as some other show that someone liked.

Liking or not liking something shouldn't correlate with the best or worst all the time. I certainly didn't like the colors involved in this show, but does it bring out the effect of clarity to confusion? Yes, therefore, I loved the effect that the clashes brought out.

Things ya gotta know: Something you see in a drum corps does not have a creative team of a children's story book. It's usually done on purpose.

Thank you for that detailed summary. I , for one, found it informing, enlightning, and interesting. While I do, and always did see the concept and the desired intent, I stil feel they missed a lot of great effects regarding the design of the drill. Difference of opinions I guess.

~G~

[chris ncsu]

It really is still personal taste, and there's nothing wrong with that.