Yamaha Closing Two US Plants

[mchromik]

I believe it's a matter of labor costs vs. import tax costs. It's the same reason why Yamaha moved final assembly plants to the US to begin with. It just took a while for the labor expertise, labor price difference and competition to make enough sense to move back.

Taxes are surly one part of it. But product differentiation is also at work. Many of the said Honda products built here are designed with this market in mind. The Euro/Asia market accord is a completely different animal then the North American market accord. Designed with our tastes and wide !@@#@ in mind. BMW,Mercedes, and Honda all build a great number of vehicles here in the US for export to other markets as well.

There must be something more to this Yamaha decision. Labor costs in Japan are very high as well and I think their product line is the same in all markets.

[dckid80]

Less import taxes and lower shipping costs for musical instruments than cars.

I doubt that Yamaha will be opening factories in Japan.

More likely Malaysia, China or Korea.

[Martybucs]

I think the hype over foreign made quality is just that, hype, unsupported by facts. Sure there's Consumer Reports, but anyone can see that they skew their reporting with bias. ie. The Japanese car has "adequate acceleration", but the American car "accelerates at a leisurely pace", you look at the times and the American car is actually faster than the Japanese car!

My wife and I owned two Japanese cars years ago. My wife had a Honda Prelude and I, a Nissan 300Z. The Honda was OK, but definitely had it's repair quirks and they were expensive. The Nissan, well, I don't want to remember that experience.

It took weeks to get an appointment at either dealer's service facility - all just routine maintenance? Don't you believe it.

Europe is no better, Buy a Volkswagen, you'll never forget what your "Check Engine" light looks like again. I know from a couple of frustrating personal experiences.

We now own American Brands. I know they're made elsewhere for the most part. We have a Dodge, which is a really cool and fast car and a Chrysler, which is also very cool. IMO. Are they perfect? No, but repairwise, they're better than the Japanese cars we've owned. Neither car has ever had the check engine light come on and the Dodge is over 100,000 miles and it's a 2003. When you call to make a service appointment they say, "Is tomorrow OK?".

So people have their perceptions about quality and are willing to ignore the truth despite what the evidence shows. I don't want to hijack the thread with people going back and forth with which make is better or worse. I'm using my car experience as an example. I'm sure your Japanese and Korean cars are trouble free. VW just sucks, sorry, Jeff's New Jetta. :P

Now to trumpets. I have a bunch. I have two Yamahas a C and a Bb. Got them, new, at a good price. I take care of my horns better than my cars. These Yamaha horns are not made that well. The design is solid and they play well. The construction is sub par. I have some horns that are over 50 years old that are sturdier and play as well. All US made.

I have two newer, early '90s trumpets US made, that are incredibly well made. I had a Strad. 37* that got destroyed by a truck. It was a wonderful lead horn. Two European trumpets that are better than the Yamahas. Oh, and a DEG bugle 3 valve I bought in 1989 directly from DEG for $350. It's never needed a single repair and has no dents and it plays great and always has. In tune? That's my job.

The Yamaha, is incredibly bright and is a really good lead horn, (used it last night at a gig). You just never know what's going to fall off next and the second valve slide is prone to being imperceptibly bent causing the 2nd valve to stick. You can slowly pull the tubing unit into alignment freeing the valve, but why does it happen? Must be Yamahas superior quality control. Or their superior work ethic and work force.

I'm an American worker and I've been blue collar and white collar. For my buck you won't find better more dedicated workers anywhere. Slackers, yeah sure, they exist, but they're mostly in office situations where they can hide. There's not much hiding going on in the factory floor.

Whew. I feel better.

[Jeff]

Marty,

From your post, it appears that you are looking for a new trumpet. Used trumpets are often a virtual bargain and many used vintage horns play as well or better than the under $2,000 new models. Dillon's in New Jersey has a wall of used trumpets that you can try until your chops fall off.

My preferences is in older Bach lightweights, especially the 72* and Olds models, recording and super, for great horns at the price of a new student model.

[Nespy]

I think the hype over foreign made quality is just that, hype, unsupported by facts. Sure there's Consumer Reports, but anyone can see that they skew their reporting with bias. ie. The Japanese car has "adequate acceleration", but the American car "accelerates at a leisurely pace", you look at the times and the American car is actually faster than the Japanese car!

My wife and I owned two Japanese cars years ago. My wife had a Honda Prelude and I, a Nissan 300Z. The Honda was OK, but definitely had it's repair quirks and they were expensive. The Nissan, well, I don't want to remember that experience.

It took weeks to get an appointment at either dealer's service facility - all just routine maintenance? Don't you believe it.

Europe is no better, Buy a Volkswagen, you'll never forget what your "Check Engine" light looks like again. I know from a couple of frustrating personal experiences.

We now own American Brands. I know they're made elsewhere for the most part. We have a Dodge, which is a really cool and fast car and a Chrysler, which is also very cool. IMO. Are they perfect? No, but repairwise, they're better than the Japanese cars we've owned. Neither car has ever had the check engine light come on and the Dodge is over 100,000 miles and it's a 2003. When you call to make a service appointment they say, "Is tomorrow OK?".

I find your experiences interesting. I have always driven Toyotas. My first car was a 1980 Toyota Corolla that I bought used in high school in 1988 with around 40000 miles for $800. I drove that car for almost ten years and it had over 300,000 miles when I gave it away. I never had any major issues with the car. The most devistating issues I had were water pump, radiator, timing belt. With the exception of the timing belt, I always performed the maintenence myself. Parts were never that expensive (don't ever buy your parts from the dealer).

My wife bought a Volkwagon Passat in 2001 when she graduated college and in the three years we owned the car we never had ANY issues. However, due to it's suggested requirement of using only premium fuel and the fact that it was about to come out from under warranty, we sold it and bought....more Toyotas.

The parts for Toyotas are not expensive and they have very good fuel economy, which is why we drive them. We now drive a 1999 Corolla and a 2002 Camry. I perform all the preventative maintenence and it is not expensive to own them or maintain them.

just my .02

[Martybucs]

I find your experiences interesting. I have always driven Toyotas. My first car was a 1980 Toyota Corolla that I bought used in high school in 1988 with around 40000 miles for $800. I drove that car for almost ten years and it had over 300,000 miles when I gave it away. I never had any major issues with the car. The most devistating issues I had were water pump, radiator, timing belt. With the exception of the timing belt, I always performed the maintenence myself. Parts were never that expensive (don't ever buy your parts from the dealer).

My wife bought a Volkwagon Passat in 2001 when she graduated college and in the three years we owned the car we never had ANY issues. However, due to it's suggested requirement of using only premium fuel and the fact that it was about to come out from under warranty, we sold it and bought....more Toyotas.

The parts for Toyotas are not expensive and they have very good fuel economy, which is why we drive them. We now drive a 1999 Corolla and a 2002 Camry. I perform all the preventative maintenence and it is not expensive to own them or maintain them.

just my .02

The thing about cars is - you just never know. We had a 1990 Toyota Celica and put 180,000 on it. Changed the water pump and timing belt at 80,000 miles and again at 150,000 miles. It was a great car. Sold it to an appreciative college student and looked at new and slightly used Toyotas since we needed a more serviceable back seat. Didn't care for the styling and the price. We bought a new Dodge Neon SXT for much less money. We got warnings from everyone about buying an American car. We saved thousands buying the car and it's been a gem. (at least until tomorrow, since I probably just jinxed myself) I like Toyotas. Just at the car show. Styling doesn't grab me. Or price.

Had a 2000 VW Passat. An unending nightmare of engine maladies. When we got to have it for a few days when it wasn't in for repairs, it was nice. Google, "VW Passat Check Engine light", We weren't the only ones. And the premium fuel was an issue. Traded the VW for a Chrysler PT Cruiser. It's a love it or hate it type of style, I'll admit, but I love the car. (Many thanks to Mistress Kelli, for the suggestion). I call it my "Mid Life Chrysler."

Just saying the hype about Japanese quality and reliability being so much better than Amercan products is all perceived value. Not real. In anycase, I wish everyone good luck with whatever they're driving and may it never break down. Especially, on a road in upstate NY miles from civilization, where the tow guys says, "Niss-ann, that used to be Datsun, weren't it?" (just kidding, the tow guy was great)

[Scooter Pirtle]

It's funny that the Star of Indiana was able to survive their entire 10 years on the field off of one set of bugles. They realized the fiscal responsibility of buying one set and having them refurbished when needed, rather than buying new. It's a shame that it makes more sense to some corps to be perpetually in debt to the manufacturers.

Truth be told, I understood that Star was in negotiations with Schilke Music Products in the early 1990s to produce bugles for the corps to replace the circa '84 King bugles. I'm not sure if or how Schilke would have addressed the large bores, or if Schilke would have been only responsible for upgrading small bores (more likely). Of course, this was rumored and I haven't been able to confirm it with any reps at Schilke.

I had a Schilke trumpet in college. I took a lot of grief from the instructor who was a serious Bach supporter. That Schilke was an incredible horn. The thought of a top five hornline with a set of those weapons in the arsenal during the early 1990s is hard to contemplate.

[G_Bass]

I really appreciate discussions like these. Matters that affect who we are in the drum corps community. No offense to the DCI thread posters, but I've read earlier what they have over in that discussion forum, and its a giant pissing contest. Here, matters are spelled out that are real.

I like the Kanstul Contra I march with. Nice and heavy, dark and menacing. Lots of fun. My next horn will most likely come from Zig.

[MoKeefus]

A couple of thoughts...

First, having worked with both European and Far East suppliers and vendors, I can say with the utmost certainty, the men and women in North America (I didn't want to leave out our friends to the North) provide a higher quality product and do it more efficiently. A German owned company in my area frequently sends reps to their facility to see how a product designed and developed in Europe can be made cheaper and better here. Many of the assemblies in the products they sell to us as “German” made were manufactured here in the states. The Toyotas and Hondas made in the United States regularly receive higher quality ratings than the automobiles made in Japan. Americans (and Canadians) do great work, probably the best in the world. What makes it cheaper for companies to move out of North America is the cost of labor and operations. By labor costs I mean social security and health insurance not the actual pay of the workers. In Europe and Japan the majority of health care and retirement funds are subsidized by the government, a cost which is killing our auto business right now. By operating costs I mean energy costs, local and state taxes and any other perk not given to them that will be provided by the new underdeveloped nation. I won’t even bring up child labor and environmental issues. We may not be burning coal for our industries but all the coal leaving the Newport News Terminal in Virginia is being burnt somewhere (China).

Second, the actual cost to make a horn or any manufactured item becomes cheaper each year. I’m willing to bet anyone a bunch of cash that a $1,500 Yamaha trumpet costs less than $150 to make. I’ll make another wager, the cost to manufacture the trumpet in the Asian country will cost right around $150 after they have been manufacturing there for a few years. At first it will cost much more than it did in the United States. Why is it cheaper for Yamaha to move the factories? They’ll be able to sell directly to you through the internet or their distributors. Even though it will cost them $300 to make the horn now, the will be able to have UPS deliver it from China to your door. They have skipped two or three steps in the supply chain. As a rule of thumb, every time an item reaches the next step closer to the consumer, the price will double. It has nothing to do with cost. (The exception is the local music store owner who has a tremendous amount of overhead costs, which is why they are disappearing.) It is all about what we are willing to pay. To prove my point, look at the cost of a Baritone versus the cost of a Euph. Is there that much more brass and chrome in a Euph to justify the price difference? Yes, if brass costs around $900 a pound.

If we as consumers, especially Americans, want to fix things, stop buying stuff. I’ll say it again, stop buying stuff. It is that simple. Use whatever you buy until it is no longer serviceable. Replace what has been consumed with the best value, not what is cool or trendy. Demand service from the seller of the product. We shouldn’t have to call India to find out why we just lost our internet connection. If we all did this, we would find the best value comes from products locally produced and locally serviced.

I'm sorry about being long winded but we need to take a stand.